[Official Poll] Would you want a Closed Beta wipe?

Thanks, kayeich, great to see someone coming up with valid points. I hope you don't mind if I refute some.

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Originally Posted by kayeich

The pace of the game is pretty fast to level 12 (although there is a bit of an annoying lag between completing a task, leveling and getting a new quest), then you first start tasting the delay of resource management/wait to 16 though it's still pretty fast, then it takes about 1-2 days to get the resources to hit level 17, sometimes depending on luck (it helps if you get a lot of bows, while my brother has been pretty much getting money, so he's lagged behind), and then more and more delays as the game gets a bit grindy/waiting.

It's actually not too fun during this time besides trading fish buffs and can't even do any actual trading until I get enough resources for a branch office, and I think he needs one as well (in addition to actually hitting 17).

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Yes, the game slows down like mad after the how to build section of the tutorial is done with, but you have to realize that much of this game is spent waiting around for resources to gather. It's not meant to be played by sitting and managing every second of the day, it's really more of the "Set it and forget it!" type. It's a lot slower paced than people are used to, but it looks like that's how the game will progress.

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As I progress and get new stuff, I can destroy buildings and put new ones. My layout right now is complete crap (I actually have residence houses near my mayor house!), but if I wanted to, I could so easily destroy it and start over without a wipe. All it takes is maybe 5 minutes to hit the little bomb icon on every building.

In exchange, I'll have more storage space (assuming I didn't delete the storage warehouses anyhow until I depleted some supplies from them if I want to relocate them), I have more space to build with, and I presumably have resources available.

People saying there should be a wipe because their layout is awful....that's a little mind-numbing. Destroy your world and redo it! Or make a new account! Jeez!

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There's some problems with this. Yes, you can delete your buildings and re-make them, but the amount of resources you get back when blowing up a building is so miniscule that blowing up buildings to re-make them isn't really a viable solution, especially when we start to consider advanced buildings which have a huge cost.

As for making a new account, yes, I suppose that's possible to do, but having 2 account seems a little... exploitative to me.

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Ditto for the people saying that things might change and lower levels should get tested out again. Besides the fact that more people would be around to test this in an open beta (or jeez, that one person who didn't like his avatar)...again, how HARD is it to start a new email account and then making a new account with CEO? 2 minutes? 5 maybe? How long does it take to get to level 17 again, or level 50, or whatever level we might be at when closed beta ends? Days? Weeks? See the difference?

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Lower levels are unlikely to change, actually. It's once you're past 16 or so, and into advanced buildings that may (and should) change. This, however, may affect how you need to do things at lower levels. And, sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what your secondary point is there.

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If the cost of buildings changes, this notion of asking for a refund seems ridiculous. Again, how hard is it to tear down your existing layout, and starting over just with the knowledge that (a) you can trade for goods you might need in the process of rennovating, (b) the extra storage/layout space to work with? Testing is FASTER when you have more resources.

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Once again, the returns of tearing down is virtually nilch.

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And as for people not liking to see people at higher level...you realize people STILL join MMOs like WoW/Rift even though there's billions of people levels ahead of them? Why is that if people so hate seeing people ahead? Oh, that's right. Could it be "Community"? You have people you can play with, people that will have the money to have started out guilds, an economy that's not wildly fluctuating, people that can help give you advice on what to do or give you free stuff once you can trade to help you along.

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There's a difference between jumping into an MMO like WoW or Rift and catching up to those at cap, and RTS's like this. The more apt comparison would be to that of Travian, or even something like Star Kingdoms both of which do a full wipe every x months to level the playing field again. Here, new folks that would join as open beta/live starts would not only be at a disadvantage of what to do, but at a disadvantage of being way behind in resources and such. And yes, there's a community of people who are willing to give pointers and guilds to join (though with 15 people only per guild that seems unlikely right now), but really, if you come in at what you think is the start and there's people miles ahead of you already, would you really be willing to run the race? Sure, down the line people joining would have the same issue, the difference is that those folks would KNOW that the game has been out for x amount of time. Those that would start in open beta/live would expect to start on a level playing field.

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For the most part in this particular game, (and to turn it around on another poster), I haven't seen a GOOD reason FOR a wipe, and I think I've stated why I don't think they're valid reasons. When you don't wipe, you have an existing community, more people that can find bugs at high levels quickly, and frankly, you don't lose quite as many people.

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You can disagree with my points, no reason to belittle them though. There's no reason why the community you speak of would just completely dissolve if there was a wipe, and finding bugs is what CB is for. I think the exodus from the game that you're imagining if there's a wipe is significantly smaller in reality; those that would leave because of a wipe probably wouldn't stick around for long anyways.

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This game -is- slow with leveling. People that stick with it long enough to get to a high level by the time beta ends, they probably won't quit so easily once they reach whatever the level cap is like some people insinuate they'll do (Pffft!), they'll just start either playing more socially, with combat against friends, or redesigning their city layouts. Maybe they might open a new email account and start over.

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Currently, we do not know what the level cap is, nor do we know what we'll be able to do specifically when we get there. We don't know how pvp will function, what other worlds we'll be able to explore, just what functions guilds will have. It's not very useful to speculate what people will in the future when we don't know what activities will be available.

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On the other hand, there are a lot of people that get attached to their world, or that hate going through the monotony of slowly getting access to old stuff all over again. Those people may very well quit in response to a wipe, unless it's planned extremely soon, while people are still level 16-20 primarily.

It's a matter of, what do you lose if you wipe? A lot. What do you lose if you -don't- wipe? *looks up at rest of post* Not a whole lot?

I still expect a wipe may be imminent once the game is officially off beta, or anywhere in between, but almost all the reasons given in this thread for doing a wipe just seem pointless and inane (and I've listed the two reasons I think a wipe is important for). Whereas the "I don't want to lose my progress" is still a very valid reason for not wiping. It's just a matter of the developer deciding whether it's worth losing those few players or not.

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I don't think there's a single person playing this game who, after a wipe, wouldn't think well hey, I know how to play this better now, and can do so from the start. I like my nation, with its faults and all, and if there's no wipe I'm totally ok with that as well, but I still believe that everyone starting out on an even playing field is still the best way to go. It would certainly help newer people not feel so out of place, and those who played through much of closed beta would have enough of a leg up having learned how to play already that it's not like their beta time was wasted.

And, as you've pointed out, wipes are common after betas, something that most people accept. Yes, we'll probably have a few people grumble about it here and there, maybe even have a couple of people not come back, but I don't think it's the same doomsday scenario you seem to make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Cenzton

Thanks, kayeich, great to see someone coming up with valid points. I hope you don't mind if I refute some.

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Well, given I was trying to refute yours earlier, how can I say no?

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Yes, the game slows down like mad after the how to build section of the tutorial is done with, but you have to realize that much of this game is spent waiting around for resources to gather. It's not meant to be played by sitting and managing every second of the day, it's really more of the "Set it and forget it!" type. It's a lot slower paced than people are used to, but it looks like that's how the game will progress.

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Oh, I understand this. I prefer Anno 1404 for a faster paced city-building, though this has it's own charm in that type of game style. Just not necessarily something I want to go through repeatedly due to wipes either.

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There's some problems with this. Yes, you can delete your buildings and re-make them, but the amount of resources you get back when blowing up a building is so miniscule that blowing up buildings to re-make them isn't really a viable solution, especially when we start to consider advanced buildings which have a huge cost.

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Again I'll disagree here. I wasn't even thinking about the return value of resources with my original post. Keep in mind that when you start, you start off with (I think, based on the base storage capacity) 500 wood/500 stone/500 tools. If you run your resource gathering nodes a while after leveling up and have upgraded your mayor hall even once, you could probably instead start off with 2k+ of resources, and not just those three resources, but also hardwood/weapons/etc. Also, instead of laying residences and having to upgrade them for settlers, you could from the start put more of the advanced noble buildings which can house 30 settlers before upgrades. You can also set things and upgrade them immediately, thus saving on space for other resources. Etc, etc, etc..

So rebuilding actually -is- easier with a higher level account, and my point that saying one should wipe because of an inefficient layout is a little foolish. If you want to restart to have better efficiency, it's more efficient in the first place to start off with more resources.

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As for making a new account, yes, I suppose that's possible to do, but having 2 account seems a little... exploitative to me.

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I agree somewhat with you, as going through the tutorial does net someone 125 gems and they could use those gems to send some basic gifts to the next account...but again, it depends on how you use the account. If you're abandoning the first account, essentially treating as a wipe, well, what's the problem then? You've effectively created your own wipe, and haven't caused problems for the people against wipes.

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Lower levels are unlikely to change, actually. It's once you're past 16 or so, and into advanced buildings that may (and should) change. This, however, may affect how you need to do things at lower levels. And, sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what your secondary point is there.

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I actually don't expect the game to change much at all. My point is that the game is primarily a port of the european "Settlers Online", and that things -won't- change significantly. BUT, generally when a wipe does occur throughout a beta, it's due to bugs, but translation bugs wouldn't significantly effect the coding of the game and require hard wipes. It's one of the reasons that I think the question of wether to wipe or not is actually possible to even ask. In a game starting from the ground up, you just can't -not- wipe throughout a beta. Here it's actually an option.

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Once again, the returns of tearing down is virtually nilch.

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And again, you can still store more resources and have quicker access to them and not even care about return on torn down investments if you want to rennovate a layout.

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There's a difference between jumping into an MMO like WoW or Rift and catching up to those at cap, and RTS's like this. The more apt comparison would be to that of Travian, or even something like Star Kingdoms both of which do a full wipe every x months to level the playing field again. Here, new folks that would join as open beta/live starts would not only be at a disadvantage of what to do, but at a disadvantage of being way behind in resources and such.

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I'm not really familiar with either of the two games you mentioned, I'm afraid, though a wipe every X months could be an interesting model. Not necessarily one I'd like, but if I knew it was scheduled and coming when going into the game, it'd sting a lot less, certainly.

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And yes, there's a community of people who are willing to give pointers and guilds to join (though with 15 people only per guild that seems unlikely right now), but really, if you come in at what you think is the start and there's people miles ahead of you already, would you really be willing to run the race? Sure, down the line people joining would have the same issue, the difference is that those folks would KNOW that the game has been out for x amount of time. Those that would start in open beta/live would expect to start on a level playing field.

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With the guild thing, assuming this follows similar coding to Settlers Online (which it should for the most part), you actually -can- have more than 15 people, but people past 15 require a fee for 'illegal papers' that let you add an extra person. The actual guild limit is 100 members.

As for the other point, that's part of the difference, I suppose. I don't see it as a race. I'd be bothered a little if I paid for the game and people had resources they got while playing for free...but with a free game? I don't really see what there is to be bothered about. So I guess this is just a point where we'll disagree.

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You can disagree with my points, no reason to belittle them though.

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Heh, I suppose I did post my initial counterpoints a little too snarky. My apologies.

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There's no reason why the community you speak of would just completely dissolve if there was a wipe, and finding bugs is what CB is for. I think the exodus from the game that you're imagining if there's a wipe is significantly smaller in reality; those that would leave because of a wipe probably wouldn't stick around for long anyways.

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Well, I don't think there'd be a mass exodus either...but you'd be surprised at how many people do leave from a wipe that would have stuck around otherwise. I'm certainly the type to feel a sense of loss when weeks of progress is wiped, it's one reason I usually -don't- play betas where you can't play different classes or go through different starting zones. I like to experience things new, going through them a second time is just a grind/chore and no longer has that sense of fun.

Admittedly, I dunno how crushed I'd feel if I had to restart with CEO. Since it's something I'd only log onto once or twice a day, and I also play Anno 1404 a lot more for my city-building experience, I'm not quite as attached.

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Currently, we do not know what the level cap is, nor do we know what we'll be able to do specifically when we get there. We don't know how pvp will function, what other worlds we'll be able to explore, just what functions guilds will have. It's not very useful to speculate what people will in the future when we don't know what activities will be available.

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We actually can speculate a whole bunch just by checking out Settlers Online, really. Just because we haven't seen it yet, doesn't mean it hasn't been done. I do expect a few tweaks here and there to adjust for an american vs european audience, but for the most part, it's the same base structure.

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I don't think there's a single person playing this game who, after a wipe, wouldn't think well hey, I know how to play this better now, and can do so from the start.

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Oh, definitely. Like I mentioned before, I have residences next to my mayor's hall. I totally know not to do that now. =)

Again though, there's quite a few people so far that don't want a wipe seeing as the poll (at this time anyhow) seems fairly even split.

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I like my nation, with its faults and all, and if there's no wipe I'm totally ok with that as well, but I still believe that everyone starting out on an even playing field is still the best way to go. It would certainly help newer people not feel so out of place, and those who played through much of closed beta would have enough of a leg up having learned how to play already that it's not like their beta time was wasted.

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I generally don't disagree with this statement, though I still think an 'even playing field' isn't particularly of importance for a free game either.

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And, as you've pointed out, wipes are common after betas, something that most people accept. Yes, we'll probably have a few people grumble about it here and there, maybe even have a couple of people not come back, but I don't think it's the same doomsday scenario you seem to make it out to be.

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Well, I don't think it's a doomsday scenario either, but I am prone to overdramatize things!

I will stand very firmly by the statement that wiping due to people's yucky layouts is silly, though. If you want to wipe so you can be more efficient, you're not being very efficient in the first place!

Well folks, there you have it. When voting yes or no, that's essentially the two sides of the argument.

And thanks, kayeich, for being civil. Others have been... less stellar about that ;)

I would like to see an optional wipe where the player has a one-time opportunity to wipe when open-beta starts. They would not got a second opportunity.

Yes.

a CB wipe would be benificial to the gamers. as it puts everyone on equal footing. starting everyone off at the same level and speed unlike currently where people join who have 00:00:10 game time and some have 1 week 4days game time.

while the wipe is a pain in the backside for those who are high levels. it will also give everyone a chance to try out new ideas and planning for their starting towns, with the knowledge they have gained from the CB.. giving them a head start planning wise to recover the lost ground from the wipe.

it would also give people a change to fix any game bug issues they had during CB. that may not have been corrected without a data wipe.

I'm right on the fence as its no big deal either way, but my settlement is coming along nicely and I'm happy with my progress so I am voting no to the wipe.

If we do wipe the games will we get a chance to choose a new main avatar?

I would say YES to a wipe. I agree that those that test Beta should not have a technological or trade advantage once the game is live. The fact is I hold out hope that maps will be randomized anyway and necessitate a wipe. Beta testers will have a distinct advantage anyway in their knowledge of the game. If anything else let that those were Beta testers get a bonus of starting materials and recruits when going live to get a head start maybe.

I have read all the pages of pros and cons on wiping, I think wiping is only fair when it goes open,I have played on others where new people join an older game and they are totally lost, attacked and end up leaving the game. I joined knowing this was a beta test, and that they get wiped before going open with the game, if others joined not knowing this then it wasn't made plain enough, that this is a BETA TEST ONLY.

i would like a wipe

yes, absolutely... would have a chance to redo a lot of early mistakes without the painful tearing down and rebuilding process...

I have thought about it and talked to other people and after all the cheerleading for the other side I really do think a wipe would be a fair and balanced way to go. It would be only right for everyone new and testers alike to start off fresh from the start.:o

Yes. A wipe is a good thing. Let the new and the old start the game anew.

Hell no.

If there are any game breaking or balancing bugs uncovered in closed beta we will need a wipe. From what I am hearing this game has been live in another country for some time now, so not expecting these.

So to summarize, if any of the bugs created an unfair situation to the player or other players a wipe should occur, otherwise, might as well keep it!

There needs to be at least 1 reset. Either Closed Beta -> Open Beta or Open Beta -> Release

Not really no, unless you give beta players double speed on everything for like 2 weeks or something, or increase the speed of resources permanently for like 2 weeks or i dont know. This game takes forever to do anything, though I like it a lot.

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Originally Posted by Aurorah

There needs to be at least 1 reset. Either Closed Beta -> Open Beta or Open Beta -> Release

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It has been stated by blues that Open Beta will essentially be release.

There is a third option -- when the user logs into the non-beta system ask them if they want to start over or not... #bestofbothworlds

I really don't understand why people feel it would be okay to have such a huge advantage over new people once it goes live. If there is no wipe, which is just plain silly, then I would want the option to have my account wiped to start over.

NO I don't!

No wipe !

I definitely do not want a wipe. I really don't feel like going through the beginning quests again, for I would rather just continue with my current position please and thank you.

Id say no to a wipe but I think there should be an option to reset for those who need it and want it.

Even footing. I say wipe and agree with the poster(s) who said that those who got to participate already have a significant head-up on what mistakes NOT to make. However in all fairness it might be possible to have a competition wherein the top 5 players get to keep their kingdoms the rest get wiped. Just a thought on the latter though.

85 to 85! Boy this is an indecisive community haha Keep the votes coming!

Don't punish beta testers who already invested time and effort, let us keep what we earned, it also allows us to help new players once they get their branch office (2 days).

its not actually a punishment wiping the game for launch, you are given the opportunity to test the game and provide feedback to make the game better, that in its self is the sole reason for joining a closed/open beta test. the wipe is actually beneficial to the game and long time testers. not because it wipes out hours/days/weeks of work but because any quest bugs/texture errors/translation problems or any other bug that may creep up from either a pre-build state or a followup game patch/bug fix update. will no longer cause problems with the players who may still have them come release.
also it gives you the chance to check out the quest fixes that you may not see at the higher levels, if a starting quest has its reward changed you will not get it. and be left going "why dont i have that".

besides the higher level players should already have the know-how to go from lv 1 to their current level if the server wiped for launch. you will also know what NOT to do early on, so frankly a wipe really doesnt effect anyone overall. yes hard work may be viewed as wasted wiping it.. but you still have the knowledge from that level to recover it quickly. where someone coming in at launch wont have.

I completely agree with a wipe. We have had the time to get some insight into what we want for our little towns and were able to give our input on what works and what doesn't (bugs not withstanding) I made level 17 in a couple of days. My city may not be as pretty as others but I have gained a lot of knowledge from the benefit of playing the game before the launch. We would have spent the time playing regardless of being included in the closed beta. Don't say you wouldn't...you are here as a gamer, aren't you?

We have the benefit and reward of teaching and guiding new players once the full launch happens. Perhaps as a bonus reward, toss out a few gems to those that tested things out. Or perhaps a prestigious star by a special avatar profile to give recognition for the time you have spent on testing.

I think if we are given the option of keeping what we have in level, materials, troops, etc...a few of us will become bored and drop the game altogether.

I would like a chance to start over when I feel I've made a mistake or if I don't like how my town looks. And trust me, my town looks terrible and almost don't want to play cuase it's so bad. So a wipe would be good to get a fresh start with what I know now. Or have it that we can have a town with each world so we can try new things. There is no replay ability with this game. If you put something down it's put there forever and you can't move it even if it was a mistake makes the game suck.

No dont wipe because it takes to long to get to 17 and so on

If wipe, how about providing a prize (like gems) to those who already invested time?
Else, I'd rather keep what I got, please.

What about providing an option to wipe, or not? This seems like a pretty important issue to most people, and I would expect that you could satisfy most everyone with an option...

Im all for a wipe when the game goes LIVE it would allow a fresh start from some of the mistakes I made early on with the quest rewards plus it would only be fair. The economy would be in the dumps if the game started out with a couple of or a bunch of people having high level empires and trade materials. I dont know to many games that faired well by letting closed beta testers have an actual physical advantage over incoming players. As closed beta testers we have advanced knowledge of how things work and I think thats a big enough advantage as it is.

I wouldn't be opposed or angry if the game wiped at open beta and live but I really don't see the point since you still need plenty of people testing out and giving feedback on the end portion of the game and any advanced stuff you might add for guilds or pvp. Starting fresh would eliminate the ability to test that.

Though it would be nice if just normally we had the option to completely destroy our empire and start from the beginning. Course it would need to wipe out any quest rewarded gems..I suspect that would be a huge tangle in programming though.

I like the idea of the reset button for those who would like to start fresh.

I agree have a "Wipe kingdom: or "Clear out" Or "start over" Kingdom button because mostly everyone here will Probably no play again if they have to do all this hard work over again especially if most of them don't "Push" themselves so a Button that allows a wipe for players how want it will be the best choice to please everyone

I'd have to say no to a wipe. I understand why you would want to, but another beta that I invested some significant time in with my brothers wiped everyone, and we never played again. It just was to frustrating to have to redo all that work.

I know the poll results are probably worth more than these comments, but due to the weeks "events", I believe more than ever that a wipe is necessary to place everyone on equal footing.
This will end the gossip and fingerpointing that has taken over the forums and in-game chat recently.
Just my 2-fish.

I understand why so many people wouldn't care for one, but I would like the opportunity to optionally wipe via an aforementioned "Kingdom Reset" button. Those who are happy with their cities can keep what the have, and those of us who'd like to start from scratch and don't mind the time investment can do so. Win-win.