So you want to build cannons. Or do you?

Now that I've reached a point in the game where I can build cannons and cook cannoneers I decided to do just that. This was plainly uncharted waters to me and it wasn't until after I built the "I gotta have that" cannon forge that I could finally sit down and do the math. Here's what I found out and want to share...

You'll need 4 expensive expert buildings in the cannon production line...

Wheelmaker: 3 exotic logs and 6 iron bars (24 iron ore + 36 coal) per wheel. 18 minute production time.
Carpenter: 6 exotic wood planks and 4 wheels (12 exotic logs + 96 iron ore + 144 coal) per carriage. 36 minute production time.
Powderhut: 6 saltpetre per gunpowder. 20 minute production time.
Cannon Forge: 6 gunpowder and 5 carriages per cannon. 60 minute production time.

That's a per cannon cost of 60 exotic logs, 30 exotic wood planks, 120 iron bars (480 iron ore + 720 coal), and 36 saltpetre.

Now go ahead and multiply all that by 10 for the per cannoneer resource requirement.

All this is unbuffed production numbers but even when buffed it's quite a lot of resources.

So I'm asking myself if I really want to build cannons.

As far as I can tell, you want cannoneers - but you don't want to make cannons.

Run adventures until you have 2500 cannons, and there you go!

But if you've already made the buildings you should build the cannons, but otherwise, find them in adventures or buy them on the open market.

You're right on target bombcar. I hope folks will decide their path by having production information ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by bombcar

As far as I can tell, you want cannoneers - but you don't want to make cannons.

Run adventures until you have 2500 cannons, and there you go!

But if you've already made the buildings you should build the cannons, but otherwise, find them in adventures or buy them on the open market.

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Any of the resources after bows (normal) need a rework.

Iron/Steel Swords cost way to much coal.
Longbows Cost way to much Longs / Time to make.
Calv cost way to much horses.
Anything above this point is to expensive to properly produce.

Keep in mind that pvp will likely be spam

Since a lot of the higher end weapons are hard to produce, the result is that you probly wont put them up against spam.
Lets do some crazy math right now.

Our alliance has calculated that the avg guild will have 25 pvpers.

25X10=250 Generals
250 Generals x 200 = 50,000 Troops.

Now lets do math on cost effectiveness
50,000 Troops Replenished At a high rate Or 50,000 troops replenished at a low rate?

Obviously you will pick the faster build time. Other wise the lower build time will result in most economic strain on you.

Lets say a player however, has the economic ability to substain troops on that kind of level.

Tsun zhu says "never attack the blunt of an army, if you do, then its waste"
So in essence, you are wasting if you produce higher level troops.

There for, the only thing we can come to do is produce recruits/bowmen until such higher level production is revamped, and balanced.

You want to at least get longbowmen over bowmen because they are only rarely lost if used properly and will compact the losses of your frontline troops. You'll also probably want to upgrade those to crossbows and cannons when you get them and they are affordable for you. You'll also want militia and soldiers against some of the harder fights because you need them in order to have a good shot at actually killing them so you don't just throw away troops. You can't kill Wild Mary with just recruits and bowmen, for instance.

I don't know how you're expecting people to effectively get away with never making cavalry. Only building recruits is like only taking your rock to a rock, paper, scissors contest, and announcing you will only use rock over and over again.

I do think recruits are a little too cheap for good balance though compared to the rest.

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Originally Posted by Suzera

You want to at least get longbowmen over bowmen because they are only rarely lost if used properly and will compact the losses of your frontline troops. You'll also probably want to upgrade those to crossbows and cannons when you get them and they are affordable for you. You'll also want militia and soldiers against some of the harder fights because you need them in order to have a good shot at actually killing them so you don't just throw away troops. You can't kill Wild Mary with just recruits and bowmen, for instance.

I don't know how you're expecting people to effectively get away with never making cavalry. Only building recruits is like only taking your rock to a rock, paper, scissors contest, and announcing you will only use rock over and over again.

I do think recruits are a little too cheap for good balance though compared to the rest.

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I believe Talar is mainly referring to the future PvP. I agree with him on that note that unless some of the production chains are tweaked, PvP will be pretty much Recruit/Bows spamming. Maybe throw in Militia and Longbowmen also, just not in huge numbers. Soldiers/Elite Soldiers/Xbowmen/Cannons I would consider to be far too valuable to risk in PvP.

As far as what the OP is talking about, even if Cannon Production stays the same, I will still build the buildings and attempt to run production for really no other reason than I want too. They are far easier to find in Adventures and unless that Production Chain is changed a little, I feel few people will pursue the endeavor.

You'll still want cavalry and crossbows or cannons for attacking in pvp. Maybe not defense though, depending on how/if player towers are implemented.

This is my thought as well. When I saw the resource demand I wanted to share that with others so they could make their own decision with more information than I had. My buildings are done and I'm surely not going to tear them down so I'll make cannons because I can. While some may not bother building cannons the buildings and capability remain a badge some will wear once they reach level 48.

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Originally Posted by SirDet

As far as what the OP is talking about, even if Cannon Production stays the same, I will still build the buildings and attempt to run production for really no other reason than I want too. They are far easier to find in Adventures and unless that Production Chain is changed a little, I feel few people will pursue the endeavor.

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Originally Posted by SirDet

I believe Talar is mainly referring to the future PvP. I agree with him on that note that unless some of the production chains are tweaked, PvP will be pretty much Recruit/Bows spamming. Maybe throw in Militia and Longbowmen also, just not in huge numbers. Soldiers/Elite Soldiers/Xbowmen/Cannons I would consider to be far too valuable to risk in PvP.

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Yep total agree.... high end weapons are too valuable to risk for PvP. It will most likely be tons of spam.

Everything past longbows is totally out of whack in terms of cost/availability. If you run even an average number of adventures in your mid lvl 30's you can basically throw away longbowmaker, iron swordsmith, steel swordsmith...etc..not even counting crossbowsmith and damascene weaponsmith (you would have to run better adventures but it is still far more cost efficient to get these weapons through adventures).

This is all leading to an unfortunate conclusion for me is that they need to nerf the weapon part of the rewards- make it up in slot 1 and make slot 6 more consistently worthwhile. Otherwise the market prices and these factors make producing these weapons a fools errand.

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Originally Posted by Bobj

Everything past longbows is totally out of whack in terms of cost/availability. If you run even an average number of adventures in your mid lvl 30's you can basically throw away longbowmaker, iron swordsmith, steel swordsmith...etc..not even counting crossbowsmith and damascene weaponsmith (you would have to run better adventures but it is still far more cost efficient to get these weapons through adventures).

This is all leading to an unfortunate conclusion for me is that they need to nerf the weapon part of the rewards- make it up in slot 1 and make slot 6 more consistently worthwhile. Otherwise the market prices and these factors make producing these weapons a fools errand.

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Agreed

Even longbows are redic.
Their cost to produce atm, is around 72g a stack, but sell for 35. Their production costs need to be downsized, the building cost needs to be nerfed, and so does the duration.

The reason I have no problem with the production time/cost for longbows is because I NEVER lose longbowmen. I made 200 of them and have never had to think about it again. Same thing with crossbowmen (although I haven't made 200 yet). If you're losing longbowmen/crossbowmen you're doing something wrong.

The reason the sell price is so low is because people do not need them. With that said, I'd like longbows and regular bows removed from adventure rewards altogether.

Ive seen the cost of units for my lv and its outrageous cost for pretty much every unit after bowmen, i mean really 40 horses for 1 calvary when it only has 5 hit points, ive only gotten up to longbowmen which isnt that bad for cost since its just upgraded from bowmen, its not just the cost to make the unit that needs revamped but also the resources to make certain pieces required for each unit that needs revamped if from what im seeing from upper posts.

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Originally Posted by Rantankerous

If you're losing longbowmen/crossbowmen you're doing something wrong.

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If they were cheaper or easier to produce it would make it more attractive to use them as a 1st wave on some of the harder adventures just to thin out troops for your first wave.

Thanks for the heads up, Wizard. Question: At your level, what and how much do the explorers return on resource search?

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Originally Posted by RMAGPILE

Thanks for the heads up, Wizard. Question: At your level, what and how much do the explorers return on resource search?

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You can find a full breakdown of what the different level searches results are here.

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Originally Posted by Rantankerous

The reason I have no problem with the production time/cost for longbows is because I NEVER lose longbowmen. I made 200 of them and have never had to think about it again. Same thing with crossbowmen (although I haven't made 200 yet). If you're losing longbowmen/crossbowmen you're doing something wrong.

The reason the sell price is so low is because people do not need them. With that said, I'd like longbows and regular bows removed from adventure rewards altogether.

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Agreed 100%

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Originally Posted by wizard

You're right on target bombcar. I hope folks will decide their path by having production information ahead of time.

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Yeah

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Originally Posted by Bobj

If they were cheaper or easier to produce it would make it more attractive to use them as a 1st wave on some of the harder adventures just to thin out troops for your first wave.

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You are right Bobj, it would be more attractive...but less realistic. I'm not an expert on war history and I'm too lazy to look it up so this next comment is only based on movies and what little I paid attention in history class. When have you ever seen someone sacrifice their bowmen in a first wave in a real war? I've only ever seen them send in waves of footmen. Again, I could easily be wrong here, but I think it's unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Rantankerous

You are right Bobj, it would be more attractive...but less realistic. I'm not an expert on war history and I'm too lazy to look it up so this next comment is only based on movies and what little I paid attention in history class. When have you ever seen someone sacrifice their bowmen in a first wave in a real war? I've only ever seen them send in waves of footmen. Again, I could easily be wrong here, but I think it's unrealistic.

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That is a good point it is not even close to being what you would have really seen haha

One must be lvl 50 to first build cannons, and i dont even think anyone in the game is that lvl.

Smitey will want to make cannons, not cause its a good deal to make them, but because its pimp. So keep doing it big wizard =)