Rather long winded PvP Suggestion

So this thread here is to take a second a talk about pvp in depth. I haven't seen anything from BB that lets us know remotely how pvp is going to look or feel. Are they taking ideas? Are they exploring pvp as a legitimate update? Yes, I've read the forums and I've scoured the search function for different posts mentioning pvp but I really haven't found anything worth while in regards to BB's standpoint on the issue. So first off lets say this, if any of you BB's would like to dive in and tell us a little more about it or give us an update on what looks like future planning for pvp by all means let us know. I'm sure the rest of the community that does love this game will agree, we don't need exact dates to be happy just rough ball park. I think the only thing I found resembling that is end of the year this year. I can't remember if it was a BB post or just someones best guess. That out of the way the rest of this post will probably be a long winded with ideas of how I hope pvp looks when it arrives.

First, I'd like to see pvp as an optional choice to those who wish or don't wish to participate in. I see that our buildings have a status bar and we can “repair” our buildings and I can't say I like that. I do not want some guild of blood drinking, meat eating, ravage beasts trolling through my island and tearing things apart when I've worked so hard to get it as efficient as it is now. I don't believe I want the ability for them to come and clear my storehouses out of all my goods either. I would say I'm an “average pvper”. I like it in moderation. So leave our home islands out of this (again my view).

All the above being said, lets set a preface of what would work as pvp. To do this I'm gonna use a system we already have in place, adventures. You can choose from 3 different types of adventures in my opinion and those are small, medium, and large. Now for pvp, lets create a pyramid of small, medium, and large islands. (Numbers would need to be worked better according to active accounts on BB's part but none the less lets say one that looks like this)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y26...vptriangle.png

Now seeing that, lets talk why. Why should it be broken down like this and what would be the point. Well if you're higher level you know that there are certain resources you cant get a hold of on a regular basis without doing adventures or getting small amounts of the said resources through explorers bringing it back. Granite, saltpetre, exotic logs, and titanium ore are these resources I am talking about. Each of those islands will have these resources on it. You can build a granite mason to work the granite nodes, cutters for exotic logs, mines for titanium ore etc etc. You can only build these buildings if you control the island. Each tier of on that pyramid represents an island that will have more nodes or whatever but it will have a moderate amount of more materials ore more of a certain kind but the top of the pyramid would be the best of the small islands. Bottom are the common pvp islands and they would be on the weak side of resources. They may contain some marble deposits and some regular resources along side of just a couple of those premium resources instead of a healthy amount.

The above covers the rewards and perks to pvp. It also leaves room for improvement or future ideas to be implemented...maybe a new resource? Whatever it may be its something to be built onto leaving room for expansion.

Now wait, if you do that then only the large guilds will take over those islands and hog it all for themselves. Yes that's probably how things will work in the end. There's strength in numbers and that's a fact of life but lets try to hamper that from being the case. Lets say small islands house 3 – 5 members of a guild. They take control and then you have an island that 3-5 of you tend to and work just like you work your own islands. It basically turns into extra real estate for some members to use with a touch of premium resources. Limiting the island to a small amount of players makes it more vulnerable to a number of the same amount of players if they can match troops to come in and take over.
Some example numbers could be small pvp islands 3-5 guild members. Mediums islands could be 20-30 members. Large islands can be 40-60 members. Numbers can always be adjusted but to get an idea, 40-60 players running one island would be pretty cramped I imagine. That would take quite a bit of real estate and make for a really large island so feel free to adjust.

That brings up the next topic. Whats to stop the guilds from taking it over and stacking camps in every free square of the island so you cant take it over ever its just impossible. Well that's where we limit how many camps can be “installed” on the island. We can set limits say 5 camps per sector, 20 camps per island...whatever. Its up to the controlling group to decide how they would like to set up their defenses and what kind of camps they would be. I see towers are options and that makes for a more interesting twist in battle and gives the controllers the upper hand. They will need it because they will be fending off who knows how many groups trying to take their island. Also, those troops come from the population! Meaning they can't adventure as much as they use to, or they have to build more nobles on their island to hold more cap. We want these islands to change hands. That's what pvp is all about is constant change. That's why we want to have less islands than what would be needed for everyone to have their own little pvp island...it must happen and pvp must be a struggle constantly. Another thing to look at would be how many groups will we allow to attack a single island? Can we limit it to a couple groups or only one group in a given time frame?

Now that we've discussed some of these issues we have a platform. So a few little details would be, in order to harvest those rare resources that's more buildings that need to be implemented. We don't want HUGE costs since we want islands to change hands and we don't want 5 hour build times for these buildings. None the less, they should cost something. It shouldn't be something someone easily walks into and thinks “hey this is easy”. It should cater to the well established players as they are the ones that will probably handle pvp. Right now this is a casual game with no need to check in but every other day but pvp you would want to be here probably nightly if not more to make sure your island is still controlled and in one piece. These resources will be stored in storehouses on the island and if the island gets taken out from under you and you haven't transported these goods home...you're SoL and the attackers get the loot. The island becomes theirs to build up and do what they will with. These storehouses could be indestructible buildings that change hands with the island when it happens.

That leaves a new building for the home islands. A port somewhere on the side that will shuttle goods to and from the pvp island. The travel time issue may want to get handled before this one comes to play as well. 15 minutes to 30 minutes is fair but you get smacked by the bug and its an hour there and an hour home you cant transport your goods as fast and that would be an annoyance. Each lvl of our new buildings the “port” would allow you to carry more resources. It would be a large building to upgrade similar to the prov house or the barracks or hell maybe even more.

So from here let your imagination go. If you took all the time to read this lengthy post then kudos to you, I hope you enjoyed my ideas.

Have always thought that PVP might consist of struggles over resources on neutral sites rather than invasion of actual Home islands. This expands the details a bit but sounds like a strong model for just such a PVP scenario.

So maybe before we go off & design wicked-cool pvp battle scenarios, could we pause & fix the underlying broken battle engine itself?

Or does the idea of pvp battle under the current battle engine appeal to you? It makes sense that your bowmen stand in front of, or at least right-beside, your "meat-shield failure" recruits? How else to explain that the enemy's dogs run right up to, and savage your ranged troops, (bowmen, longbows, crossbows), without interacting with the recruits?

Unless the engine that drives the battle is overhauled, and replaced with one that more closely mimics a real battle, pvp will suck, regardless of how it's played out, what you fight for, or what rewards are delivered.

As far as MMORTS go, I've played Evony, and Castle Empire. So I am by no means an expert on battle mechanics, but I can say that Evony's battles were truly epic in both complexity and scale. Part of it was that you could send up to 1MM troops at an opponent, from EACH of your up-to-10 cities. Compare that with 200 ~ 250 troops and the ability to nuance your attack through layers is significantly impacted.

As a defender, I should have to worry that my cavalry doesn't run out too far ahead of my army, or my towers where I've parked my archers. Otherwise, they're sitting ducks to enemy archers. I want to draw my opponent's army within range of all my ranged weapons, be that bows or cannons. And ranged weapons sitting in a tower should get a distance bonus since they're up higher & through simple physics, their weapons travel further.

Fix the way battles work, give us time to adjust to that through the adventure system, and then bring in pvp.

Ok, this is probably gonna come off as me being rude but I'm not completely intending it to be. First I don't see the battle engine as broken. I'm not saying I don't disagree with it, but I don't see where it's broken. Dogs (or other players cav) explicitly say they attack the weakest units first. So your argument about bowmen just got tossed out the window. Now your argument about cavalry I agree with...those being a first strike unit over bowmen is quite odd, but none the less it works as intended and plainly stated in the description of the troop. Now distance and "simple" physics, agree with that to...except again it works as stated. If you want real life scenarios or situations, find a game that has them instead of trolling my post and pointing out bugs that doesn't exist. The game has plenty of actual bugs that should be fixed rather than a system that already works as it states leaving no surprises if you pay attention to descriptions.

Quote:

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Ok, this is probably gonna come off as me being rude but I'm not completely intending it to be.

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That rings ... untrue. Whatever. Have a nice day.

i have to agree with hobknocker to an extent, the fact that dogs will kill my weakest no matter what is bull, i should be able to design a force that is able to limit losses to an acceptable level instead of dogs automatically taking out a number of my troops roughly equal to the number of dogs that there are

secondly, the other problem with the battle mechanics (and thus with your scenario) is that you can send 200 troops and not manage to kill anything (in camps right now) this means that in pvp, those higher level players that are getting access to those upper level resources, will immediately start to stock their island with crossbowmen and cannoneers (upper level troops) and with the way the battle engine works, you would never be able to defeat all their upper level troops with lower level guys because you would never be able to have your generals continuously attack

Again bowmen aren't a problem...unless you send bowmen to kill dogs then yes it is a problem. More importantly than that is if you're sending bowmen to take out dogs then you aren't thinking things through. I do an adventure everyday or every other day and I encounter dogs all the time. 1 solid wave of recruits kills off dogs fairly easy with minimal losses.

The other problem 200 troops don't kill bandits in adventure camps often. I don't know about your experience but I've seen at least 1 camp I can think of off the top of my head is the tower in Dark Brotherhood. It takes 5 waves to kill off that camp. And without pvp, I still have a health supply of crossbowmen, so the attackers not having good troops to take out the guys who own the island is again not that big of an issue. Yes, taking an island should be an uphill struggle. The guys holding the island should have the advantage or it would change hands every hour. An island changing hands every couple days seems reasonable but every other hour in this game is a bit much. Thats also why it is a group effort. Again using the adventures as a common ground, I don't walk into Dark Brotherhood thinking Im gonna clear it myself. I bring along 2 other people and we all work it together. Pvp as a solo thing in this game won't work. I suppose it could if you scale it down small enough but my idea is to incorporate the already formed guilds. Teamwork is key as it is with most things.

Yes generals may be limited but again I have 8 generals myself and will have 9 when easter hits. One of my running buddies has 10. You start putting things together and all of a sudden you have a force to go take an island. You don't build troops and send em the same day. As with most everything to this game you stock pile. I don't start an adventure with no troops. I have a healthy supply of troops then start the adventure and send my troops. Sure I will build more as I'm losing some but the idea is to prepare yourself. It takes a little time, a little planning, and a good supply of resources to put together your army. Why shouldn't it be the same in pvp?

Edit* Another thing after taking a second look is the only time I can't kill something with 200 troops is when I'm facing a leader. Leaders have 3-9k hp. I don't have any units that resemble that so I won't be able to stop you from taking at least something. If I stock 200 cannoneers in a camp and you send 200 recruits you ARE killing something I garuntee it. So it takes 2-3 waves to kill off a single camp. Sounds a lot like most adventure scenarios.

As a simulation of a battle 200 recruits vs 200 cannoneers.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y26...psituation.png

You take out more then half of what is there. So essentially 2 waves of just recruits will take out a camp full of cannoneers. Lets also think about the things like...how many resources did it take me to build 200 cannoneers, how much time to train them, how much time to gather the materials...days probably? How long did it take you with 400 recruits? I build currently 4k bronze swords a day. A stack or two bandits a day. Time to train 400 recruits is less then 12 hours. Not only did you take out my camp but you done it faster and less of a resource cost.

Dreamsfear, this is an excellent idea of pvp combat, but I have to disagree with your emphasis on destroying one of the greatest benefits of being in a guild. By putting so many limits like camp limits and player limits being in a guild during pvp has much less meaning. If you are so worried abut a guild destroying a single players island with ease we should probably make it that single players can only be attacked by one member of a guild at a time, but members in guilds are not subject to this protection because they can always call on their guild mates for help.

Yea thats something that needs more looking into. Because right now I can't really see a way for a non guilded member to pvp with any type of ease if not a complete failure at even attempting. But to the extent of putting a limit to camps on the island, what would be to stop a guild from putting camps in every single available square? That would defeat the purpose of seeing island control change hands ever I think. The limit could be adjusted by all means. I have no real solid idea for a good number but to walk into an island of hundreds of camps...that would be more of an upper hand than I think should be available. It should be a struggle but not a completely pointless endeavor. Its definitely something that would need looked into.

The whole purpose of this post is honestly to hopefully pry out some info from BB into how pvp may work and get some good ideas out of players who do want to see pvp. I know the post is rather long but if you are truly wanting to see pvp you're probably more apt to read most of it over. Cheers :)