Re-balancing Heavy Arms

The loot drops on adventures are really starting to skew the balance of the game. Longbows, iron swords, and steel swords (and soon d. swords, xbows, and cannons) are all becoming HEAVILY devalued. It's to the point where nobody is producing them, and it's very hard to find any buyers for the huge stashes out there.

These weapons aren't being used because the investment in training times is too long compared to the small-arms units.

Exploring obvious options:

Increase Demand
1. PvP
2. Reduce barracks training times or increase barracks capacity
3. Donate units to a guild army pool which can be sacrificed for DECENT rewards (fix guild quests)
4. Make adventures harder so they require bigger unit losses (players will choose the path of least resistance, so will likely be less effective)
5. Provision down to small-arms

Decrease Supply
1. Modify adventure loot to reduce heavy-arms drops
2. Modify adventure loot for more small-arms slots

I think we as players would rather increase demand than reduce supply. Provisioning down (longbows to shortbows - steel swords to bronze swords - iron swords to bronze swords) would be the quick-fix. We have scaffold rods / used longbows but we need provisions that go the other way.

I think that the BEST option is to modify the barracks capacity. If the barracks had 3 queues (Intermediate / Advanced / Expert), then you could be training recruits/bows concurrently with longbows/militia/soldiers/cavalry and xbows/elite soldiers/cannons.

Because you would potentially triple your barracks output if you were sacrificing advanced units -- milita / LONGBOWS / cavalry / elite soldiers start to become expendable and replacable. (Demand for steel and titanium shoots up drastically and expert buildings gain value).

Any other opinions out there?

It's not the loot drops, Z. It's the aging population on the server.

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Originally Posted by Chasmanic

It's not the loot drops, Z. It's the aging population on the server.

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Are you trying to tell me that the price for a stack of iron swords has dropped from 130gc to 50gc over the past 6 months because the 'aging population' of the server has experienced an iron-smelter and iron-weaponsmith building spree that caused the steady overabundance?

Methinks it has something to do with the fact that in 24 minutes I could have 8 recruits or 3 militia -- and everybody chooses recruits. And adventure after adventure after adventure, people are getting larger and larger piles of heavy weapons from the loot.

well i dont produce any iron or steel swords, because i get all i need from loots
i also find the expert buildings (except exo mills) useless, why would i bother to produce cannons, xbows or dama swords? only need 2500 of each to have enough troops of each, we get that and much more from loots, thats the unbalance

Well that the server is aging and there are players that have played here 'longer' is a given. That longterm players are reponsible for the crash in value of Iorn swords can be inferred IN PART... its easier to make iorn swords for established players, hence more of them put them on the market , hence increased supply results in decreased demand.

I dont think thats unhealthy. It just means you have to realize the changing dynamic of the market and seek to supply something else , or find a way to ramp up your volume at less cost to make it more profitable to sell the existing product at the existing price.

Look at fish: used to be never more than 1-2 gc/400 now I sell what I dont supply to my guild @ 4gc/400 because they are so useful in making baskets , and the buff economy is alive and well. In fact if your selling your fish for 1-2 gc now your seriously undervaluing what you could be getting by turning them into buffs instead.

Same thing with meat and I only expect demand to increase (and thus price to increase) for both these products as time goes on.

Back to your rebalance suggestion. I think its a good idea to :

A) Institute PVP , but DO IT RIGHT - beta beta beta this to death before you launch it
B) Address Barrack build times by allowing 1 barrack per 5 provinces you control - then you get 2 with your starter island and an additional one per each 5 sectors controlled on the PVP continent
C) Guild Army pool : Yes. Can be overseen as an allied cardre , generals donated controlled by guild leaders and 2 vGM (max 2 of those appointed vGM)
D) Dont need to make existing advents harder. Just more rare and make NEW adventures that ARE harder. This is overdue and necessary to relieve boredom and freshen your product. A team of 2 should work this full time till you have over 200 advents.
E) Provision down to small arms? No. You can accomplish the benefits this measure may grant through other more positive means. Use imagination , dont stiffle options.

Decrease supply:

Id say no, but you could incease the amount of arms required to produce a unit. Again I wouldnt do this though.

Additional barracks ques : sure but see how it affects longterm balance first.

Just about everything is deflating. Higher lvl troops are rarely sacrificed in adventures. The only reasonable way to increase value in them is to make an adventure that requires high lvl troops to be killed off. Even then, people will complain if the reward from the adventure is not good enough to offset the costs which will then make the adventure obsolete.

I'm lvl 36 so far and all the single player adventures I have done so far has not required me to lose a single soldier or milita and yet I'm still getting plenty of iron and steel swords from loot. Supply over demand, the value of iron and steel swords will constantly go down since you only need a small amount of them to last you a life time.

couldn't agree with this post more. something needs to be done about weapon devaluation. even bronze swords bows and horses have fallen in value to the point where they're barely worth producing either and these are used to replace killed units constantly.

I agree totally ! The devs didnt think things through good enough, as they have made every expert building an obsolete joke, and quite a few advanced buildings as well. Crossbows, for example, have dropped dramaticly...and, why build crossbows when they are selling for 1gc/, but cost like 8gc/ to make? Cannons are another joke...I get more from wheels and carriages then cannons...and you need wheels and carriages to even make a cannon! The reason is simple...the loot drops KO'd the need for these buildings period. They need to remove a bunch of them from loot drops, IMHO.

I'm lucky to be a "late bloomer" and just now making the levels for the advanced buildings. Several weeks ago, I would've spent the resources to build 'em. Now, luckily, I've seen what ya'll are talking about. Get 'em on loot drops, buy 'em for coppers on the gold coin discount. Yep. Surprised if another "carpenter" or "cannon maker" (whatever they're called) is ever built.

LISTEN UP here is the production values of swords bows and horses. Bronze swords: 22 per stack, horses: 23 per stack iron swords 176.54 per stack bows 37.2 per stack long bows 88 perstack steel swords 367.64 per stack.
the market used to reflect these and you could even profit on them all but now there is no need to make anything. this is caused not by the players who have played long time but by the new genration of players who have 60 coinages and will buy gross amounts of resources for less and less coin every day. Feb 2012 i could sell horses at 40gc per stack.....i had 15 stables and that was how i made coin. Sept 2012 they sell for 10gc. i no longer have any weapon makers but bronzesmiths and 2 stables. BIG COIN MAKING GEM USEING ISLANDS HAVE RUINED THE MARKET WHY DOESNT ANYONE SEE THAT LOL.


all values are compaired to the production time, cost, resource used in manufactoring, and building space used in making coin. all math was done by me. economy major in college :) i have no life.

and remind me how a loot drop has dropped the price of all of the other resources such as bread market? (now 9-10 Feb 20-25 produciton price 17gc) cuz the 350 bread i get every 5 weeks from a loot drop has completely eliminated the need for me to even make it. look at the whole market r tard. and no steel swords have always been a loosing production chain i give you that one

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Originally Posted by Ninjet

BIG COIN MAKING GEM USEING ISLANDS HAVE RUINED THE MARKET WHY DOESNT ANYONE SEE THAT LOL.

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[off topic]
Big coin making islands should be devaluing the currency -- forcing prices up. Your logic is flawed.

Obtaining the coins through gems instead of marble / hwp / tools has forced the price of those three resources down heavily. It gets to a balance point where the hwp and marble is so cheap, that it erodes the advantage of refilling the gold mines. Most of us are aware of the problems double-buffing is causing to the economy.
[/off topic]

The loot, or more precicely, the lack of demand for heavy weapons is forcing weapon prices down. The barracks capacity is the other culprit.

Blocking on adventures is the primary cause of the increased supply. The developers didn't seem to anticipate the effort that the players would expend increasing troop efficency. But blocking is one of the engaging features of the game, and removing it would be quite catastrophic, especially with the current experience / level requirements.

The barracks bottleneck has the high-level players with nearly unlimited resources -- and a finite amount of troop production. This finite production causes a surplus of resources (weapons) that can't be utilized. They have capped demand -- which is creating an imbalance with the supply. Supply is capped by a finite amount of copper/iron mines -- but with the added loot we are seeing the supply far exceed demand and plummeting prices.

Allowing a 3-tier barracks queue both increases demand for advanced weapons, and also modifies the weapon demand cap to something more in line with supply (thus getting us a lot closer to balanced).

I suggest allowing troops to be hired at the barracks twice as fast if you use twice as many mats. So a recruit takes 10 bronze swords and a minute, or 20 bronze swords and half a minute.

it only takes me 45 sec per recruit but that is lvl 5 barraks but that would be epic imo :)

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Originally Posted by ZBest

[off topic]
Big coin making islands should be devaluing the currency -- forcing prices up. Your logic is flawed.

Obtaining the coins through gems instead of marble / hwp / tools has forced the price of those three resources down heavily. It gets to a balance point where the hwp and marble is so cheap, that it erodes the advantage of refilling the gold mines. Most of us are aware of the problems double-buffing is causing to the economy.
[/off topic]

The loot, or more precicely, the lack of demand for heavy weapons is forcing weapon prices down. The barracks capacity is the other culprit.

Blocking on adventures is the primary cause of the increased supply. The developers didn't seem to anticipate the effort that the players would expend increasing troop efficency. But blocking is one of the engaging features of the game, and removing it would be quite catastrophic, especially with the current experience / level requirements.

The barracks bottleneck has the high-level players with nearly unlimited resources -- and a finite amount of troop production. This finite production causes a surplus of resources (weapons) that can't be utilized. They have capped demand -- which is creating an imbalance with the supply. Supply is capped by a finite amount of copper/iron mines -- but with the added loot we are seeing the supply far exceed demand and plummeting prices.

Allowing a 3-tier barracks queue both increases demand for advanced weapons, and also modifies the weapon demand cap to something more in line with supply (thus getting us a lot closer to balanced).

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not really some of this is true but a gem using coinage island makes alot of coin they find people who are dumb and will sell lets say coal for 4gc now others have to decreace their prices to compete and pretty soon coal which used to be at 13 gc production is 7 and now is i have seen it for as low as 2 on TT how can you say this is flawed i watched it happen i already had 6 months of play in before you joined and watched the market deteriorate as these big coinage islands became more abundant. started with Emahs2. i used to be one of the dumb ones who helped the economy fall i sold him wheat at 7 production price instead of the 14 that market was. i take my claim in the fall of the market but i stopped that back in december of last year as soon as i figured out what was happening

as for big weapons they have never been at the value on the TT of what it costs to produce them and never will unless they stop putting them in loot drops and force us to actually make them ourselves

If it was inflation of gold coins, there'd be more supply of coins than materials, and the price of materials would rise. As it is, more higher-level players no longer NEED materials (anyone over level 40 will overproduce hardwood planks and marble, for example, unless they completely remove their buildings), so they dump them when they max out. I give away HWP and marble in guild for stacks of anything, because I'm too lazy to trade.

Keep in that mind NEWBIE players have to be able to afford Bronze weapons. Also, militia are NOT use much in adventures anyways! Once u get soldiers they do all the work. Same with ES's. As with Cavalry, they do not usually get killed off as much either. That's why people use up all the rec's they can because iron and stuff is too expsenive in the 20-30 range. Its not only adventures. Its the way the game is played. Also keep in mind that everyone looks at this as a way of profit. If all you wanted is vast profit among building then just build baskets, tools, lumbers, mines. Its all profit on its own isn't it? So your just saying its not enough because demand is lower than it was?

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Originally Posted by bombcar

If it was inflation of gold coins, there'd be more supply of coins than materials, and the price of materials would rise. As it is, more higher-level players no longer NEED materials (anyone over level 40 will overproduce hardwood planks and marble, for example, unless they completely remove their buildings), so they dump them when they max out. I give away HWP and marble in guild for stacks of anything, because I'm too lazy to trade.

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also a great point hun

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Originally Posted by WhiteGoblin

Keep in that mind NEWBIE players have to be able to afford Bronze weapons. Also, militia are NOT use much in adventures anyways! Once u get soldiers they do all the work. Same with ES's. As with Cavalry, they do not usually get killed off as much either. That's why people use up all the rec's they can because iron and stuff is too expsenive in the 20-30 range. Its not only adventures. Its the way the game is played. Also keep in mind that everyone looks at this as a way of profit. If all you wanted is vast profit among building then just build baskets, tools, lumbers, mines. Its all profit on its own isn't it? So your just saying its not enough because demand is lower than it was?

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no things dont sell for what they cost to produce. you have to remeber that time in an MMO is also a resource and when you have to sell something at half of what it is worth it makes producing them a waste of time. horses for example are worth23 gc per stack to produce how many times have you seen someone paying that for them in the last 4 months? huh what was that? never!!! oh my the market sucks tools and lumber dont sell for what they are worth either. the only thing that is worth selling is copper ore cuz it is only worth 3gc a stack to produce. it is inflated because of the fact we only get 6 mines lol. it is why they can charge 100 dollars for an endless one

It's a hard economical problem. I guess if we could figure this out we'd be out of our own US debt haha. Its all capitalism. Supply and demand. Plus not very many people trade fair anyways. The only true profit is creating all your needed supplies needed to create the weapons. And the only way to make things that take resources profitable would be to decrease the materials needed price's substantially. And people always charge those the highest

And as more people hit 50 they won't even need troops anymore; why battle through BK when you can just buy a lootspot?

Brew is cheaper because people could get FIVE friaries during that event. I don't even want to know how much beer per hour five level 5 friaries buffed would make.

80 beer every 6 minutes and 30 seconds (Buffed) Bombcar.

And how much beer does a drill-planned barracks take when making recruits?

None Bombcar, Infantry drill plan only takes 125 gems...

No, I mean a level 5 barracks produces X recruits an hour, or 2X when drill planned. That's 2X*10 beer per hour.

Another option to deal with heavy weapons (allow barracks AND provision house to produce troops):

Provision mercenaries:

20 iron swords, 10 coins, 10 minutes - 1 militia in star menu
( 500 iron swords, 250 coins, 250 minutes - 25 militia )
20 steel swords, 20 coins, 15 minutes - 1 soldier in star menu
( 500 steel swords, 500 coins, 375 minutes - 25 soldiers )
50 horses, 25 coins, 18 minutes - 1 cavalry in star menu
( 2500 horses, 625 coins, 450 minutes - 25 cavalry )

Even if you play with very little trading, the way I do, the game is just too small. There are too many high level players and there is nothing much for them to do. It is nearly impossible to maintain a steady-state economy - things just have to keep expanding. So imho what is needed is not only more adventures, but more land. When a player hits lvl 50 make a bunch of building permits and whole new (very tough) island available. Maybe an adventure which when completed will let you OWN the zone. That will revitaize the economy as the top players will have to plan for and produce for and trade for expansion. I think we have all seen other games in which this done and which keep their players for years. I can see the end in this game - about one year to hit lvl 50 (or near) and then it's find another game. (Having said this, I know, I know, the devs are having a hell of a time even keeping this limited game going!)