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Need some help with math here.... essentially, does it matter where do i place my "exotic" buffs like fruit basket, cookies etc in order to maximize output? Given that all elements of gold chain are the same level... will the final output of gold coins be the same or different if i place my cookie buff on Coinage or Gold Mine?
Buffs double the output without doubling the amount of resources used. That means that it's always best to buff the building farthest along the production chain because you'll get more for it. In your case, that would be the coinage.
ok, let me clarify:
we start with 1000k gold ore.
1st scenario: no buffs
1000 ore mined --> 500 gold bars smelted --> 125 gold coins minted
2nd scenario: 2 x buffs on all (irma's basket)
2000 ore mined --> 2000 gold bars smelted --> 1000 gold coins minted
3rd scenario: 2x buff on mine and smelter, 3x buff on coinage
2000 ore mined --> 2000 gold bars smelted --> 1500 gold coins minted
4th scenario: 3x buff on mine, 2x buffs on smelter and coinage
3000 ore mined --> 3000 gold bars smelted --> 1500 gold coins minted
it APPEARS to me that output will be the same in scenarios 3 and 4, which is significant, since it's much easier to make lvl5 mines than it is to make lvl5 coinages...
just want to know where is my "math" wrong :>
Well it takes 2 ore to make a bar and 4 bars to make a coin. So using your scenarios:
1st scenario: no buffs
1000 ore mined --> 500 gold bars smelted --> 125 gold coins minted (Check!)
2nd scenario: 2 x buffs on all (irma's basket)
2000 ore mined --> 2000 gold bars smelted --> 1000 gold coins minted (Check!)
3rd scenario: 2x buff on mine and smelter, 3x buff on coinage
2000 ore mined --> 2000 gold bars smelted --> 1500 gold coins minted (Check!)
4th scenario: 3x buff on mine, 2x buffs on smelter and coinage
3000 ore mined --> 3000 gold bars smelted --> 1500 gold coins minted (Check!)
5th scenario: 3x buff on smelter, 2x buffs on mine and coinage
2000 ore mined --> 3000 gold bars smelted --> 1500 gold coins minted
So yea it looks like it doesn't matter where you use the 3X buff the output will be the same.
So for a level 5 mine and level 1 smelters and coinages:
15000 ore mined --> 15000 gold bars smelted --> 7500 coins
And actually I recently found that it was pretty easy to level up my coinage (though I didn't level up my smelter, just built a new one) since I already had the exotic wood sawmill and some granite.
Just keep in mind that your mine is also going to run dry much faster at level 5 (my mines extract about 115 gold per day), so make sure you have plenty of gold in the deposit before you run and buff it!
Don't forget to take into account the Coal you need to use to smelt the ore into bars. That* is where you'll start to lose value.
Greyman_,
I really don't see how the coal is going to make you lose value. The only way I see that being true is if you have difficulty producing enough coal when your gold smelter's are off. The price of coal was pretty low the last time I checked and it's not that hard for me to make more than enough to supply all (except my gold) my smelters when they are on (I think they only run at ~-600/12hrs when the gold smelters are running). So my opinion is that if your cookers/mines produce enough extra coal that you have a large stock pile when the smelters are off then you have no lost value when you turn them on and they start using that excess coal.
Scenario 3 - 2000 ore mined (1000 cycles of smelter x 12 min) - 2000 gold bars smelted (400 cycles of coinage x 24 min)Quote:
Originally Posted by LadySilverDagger
Scenario 4 - 3000 ore mined (1500 cycles of smelter x 12 min) - 3000 gold bars smelted (600 cycles of coinage x 24 min)
Scenario 5 - 2000 ore mined (1000 cycles of smelter x 12 min) - 3000 gold bars smelted (600 cycles of coinage x 24 min)
So --- technically, the end result is the same -- but your output is MUCH, MUCH faster (and less basketed) with the coinage buff.
If your gold chain is balanced -- X buffed mines, X buffed smelters, X buffed coinages -- a 3x buff on a mine or smelter only gets you inventory, and doesn't increase coin production at all.
And Greyman is right on the coal -- in Scenario 4 (mine buff), you're using 50% more coal - 1500 cycles instead of 1000.
coinages is the best
That explains it, now I see what you guys (Greyman and ZBest) mean. Speed and more coal used. Duh, can't believe I missed that! :smacks forehead: Thanks for clarifying ZBest.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBest
If any resource from ore to coins buffed produces twice as many coins in the end, why would coinages be best?Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconus2004
Buff ore - twice as many coins
Buff smelter - twice as many coins
Buff coinage - twice as many coins, but takes twice as long as ore or smelter.
Which one is best Draconous2004?
Actually, a buffed coinage will produce twice as many coins in the same time as an unbuffed coinage. So from the very pure, "I want the most coins as fast as possible" perspective, it'd be the best if you're only buffing one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smurdley
There are supply/demand issues within your production lines, so there's an implicit assumption that you have enough materials at each stage to support the next one.
Well, I did the calculations in a spreadsheet and here's what it looks like...
The green areas are buffed and the red are unbuffed.
The left column is a different layout than the 2 right columns. The left column each line is a different buff layout of the same buff (i.e. It's the same buffs and/or non-buffs, no mixing 2x buffs with 3x buff). The 2 right columns, each "box" is a different buff scenario in which no buff, 2X buff and 3X buff are mixed.
As you can see, it makes no difference what stage of the chain you buff, you will end up with the same total coin at the end.
But yes...if you want coin faster then best buff (or only buff) on coinage.
My calculations also assume a 500 gold ore deposit as base, and assume all buildings are the same level and if you have more than 1 of each type of building that all of those are buffed the same (i.e. if you have 4 gold mines and 3 gold smelters and 2 coinage, when you place a 2X buff on smelter you place it on all 3 smelters)
Your spreadsheet says to me that it absolutely matters how you buff. The whole point of buffing a gold chain is so that you get the max coins from a given ore deposit (and coal used) before the ore is depleted and you have to build a new mine (or buy a golden parrot).
The cost of building a mine
1400hw 1400mb 1500t
So before you even take into account the coal, you need to make enough coins so that just selling those materials would not get you more than the total coins you'd create from the deposit.
On Ares right now, you can sell (min 1000)
marble: 8gc per 100 or
hardwood planks: 7gc per 100
tools: 6gc per 100
That is, the gold you could make by just selling the raw materials to build one mine is:
112+98+90 = 300
Right now, that means you need at least 300gc from a single mine to even break even w/o factoring in coal costs to smelt. If you're not running buffed you're not getting at least 300 coin from a 300 deposit, then you're losing money.
I hear materials prices are much lower on Zeus, but still the profit margins are tight so you still have to run buffed. Though I built a gold chain just to have one, I have it idle. I make far more just selling the hardwood and marble right now (and I'd rather not spend gems on golden parrots).
Vernis, I think you are missing the point. In this case the OP's specific question about a single triple buff...that is only having 1 fruit basket and wanting to know where in the gold chain is the best building to place it on.
First of all, if anyone runs any part of their gold chain unbuffed they are not very smart. Your gold chain should ALWAYS be buffed, and if you can't buff it for some reason then sleep your gold chain till you can buff it. And I think on all servers it's cheaper if you can refill a gold mine before it depletes so you don't have to rebuild...of course it can be difficult at times to acquire gold deposits or golden parrots.
Now, as for my spreadsheet. I do have a list in there for what you get unbuffed, but that is just for informational purposes to compare to everything else.
If you actually look at all the different buff scenarios you will see that it doesn't matter what building you buff, it all comes out to the same thing (this is assuming for some reason you couldn't buff all 3 - gold mine, smelter and coinage).
Put it this way; if you have 1 gold mine, 1 gold smelter, 1 coinage (only 1 of each for simplicity, but if you have more then all gold mines are together, all smelters are together and all coinages are together...or that is you buff all mines, or all smelters or all coinage). So you have 1 of each but you only have 1 buff to place, it doesn't matter which building you place it on because in the end you get the same result. Same if you have 2 buffs, it doesn't matter which 2 buildings (again assuming you only have 1 of each) you place the buff on.
Same goes for mixed buffs (2x buffs, 3x buffs, 4x buffs). That's the point.
I'm not taking into account the cost of building mines or smelting the ore. You will acquire that cost no matter what, and buffing a smelter or not buffing a smelter won't alter that.
I'm also not taking into account the production times of buildings, because the production times don't matter. If you put a 500 gold deposit on a mine, the end result in total coins will not change if you only buff the mine or if you only buff the smelter or if you only buff the coinage...you would still get the same total coins at the end.
The only difference comes if you want coins faster, in which case you would buff your coinage as this obviously doubles your output (or triples depending on buffs), but buffing mines or smelters won't speed up your production of coins, only give you a greater amount of material to create coins with.
Also, if you find that you have to continually build gold mines, you tear it down before it crumbles, ideally when it has 1 gold ore left. This will net you back a quarter of the supplies used to build it. It really helps. If you can't babysit it to tear it down before depletion, just sleep it until you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vernis
Except that the quarter of supplies returned is only on the lvl 1 gold mine. The thousands of tools to take it to level 5 is not returned. Better to refill or put to sleep than tear down.Quote:
Originally Posted by RecklessRue
If you are going to tear it down when there is 1 ore left, you will not want to upgrade it to level 5. Level 2 is the best.
500 ore in a mine, buff the mine you get 1k gold ore, 1k gold ore + 8k coal = 500 gold bars = 125gc
500 ore in a mine = 500 gold ore, buff the smelter, 500 gold ore + 4k coal = 500 gold bars = 125gc
500 ore in a mine = 500 gold ore, 500 gold ore + 4k coal = 250 gold bars, buff the coinage = 125gc
this point might've already been made in this thread, but heres the numbers on placing only 1 buff on a mine/smelter/coinage chain. buffing only the mine is a bad idea obviously because you then use twice as much coal for the end result. same idea would apply if using aunt irma's baskets, and exotic basket(s) on 1 part of the chain. in fact, i would never use a 3X or 4X buff on a gold mine, much more profitable to use on smelters and coinages
Even buffing the smelter has limited value. If you have a balanced gold chain -- 4 x lv2 mines, 2x lv4 smelters, 2x lv4 coinages for example -- 8 levels of each.Quote:
Originally Posted by LostSoul913
When it is turned on and 2x buffed (disregarding travel time):
One mine produces 4 ore per 12 minutes -- total 32 ore in 24 minutes.
One smelter procuces 8 bars in 12 minutes -- total 32 bars in 24 minutes.
One coinage produces 8 coins in 24 minutes -- total 16 coins in 24 minutes.
So your coin production is 16 coins in 24 minutes.
If you put 3x buffs on your smelters -- you produce 64 bars in 24 minutes, but you still produce 16 coins in 24 minutes. You just build an inventory of gold bars. You either need to sleep your mine and smelter to turn them into coins, or you sell off the extra bars. But you never exceed 16 coins per 24 minutes.
If you put 3x buffs on the coinages -- you produce 24 coins per 24 minutes. Increasing your actual gold chain output by 50%.
You could argue that lv1 is the best -- because it saves you 500 tools per mine, at about 18-19gc, and gets expensive if you don't produce them yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannahlv
299 cycles of lv1 mine is just over 60h -- requiring 6-7 baskets (36-42gc)
149 cycles of lv2 mine is just over 30h -- requiring 3-4 baskets (18-24gc) + 18-19gc worth of tools
99 cycles of lv3 mine is just over 20h -- requiring 2-3 baskets (12-18gc) + 55-58gc worth of tools
yea, only reason i put 3X buffs on smelters is for when im using something like a cookie buff on a lvl5 coinage, which drains 580 gold bars every 12hrs. if i could play this while at work like some people, it wouldnt be a problem. but i cant use aunt irma's baskets on my gold line while at work, as im away longer than 9hrs. so i need a 12hr buff on a lvl5 smelter here and there to keep the coinage from depleting my gold bars. enter pasta buffs =) i love pasta buffs, wonderful addition to the game imo
yes, 3X buffs on coinages is best w a balanced gold line, when you're able to run it all balanced. timing restrictions completely screw up this idea. dam u real life, u win again =P
See bolded part, that's not true, at least not entirely. Buffing a mine or buffing a coinage you will end up with the exact same amount of gold coin in the end, neither one is more profitable than the other. Same thing goes for buffing the smelter instead of the mine or the coinage, you end up with the exact same amount of gold coin in the end, so none of the 3 is more profitable than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by LostSoul913
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE is if you take coal use into account as in your first example where you buff the mine and have twice as much ore to process. You would still have the same amount of gold coin in the end.
So if you look at it that way, if you are worried about using an extra 4k coal (which amounts to about 40gc worth) then don't buff the mine (if you only have 1 buff) or don't use the 3x or 4x buff on the mine (if you have buffs for everything and want to use 1 extra special buff somewhere).
Agreed, that's why I thought the question was, "if I have ONE triple or higher buff, but the rest are just baskets (double), where to place the triple buff?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconwolf
I think the answer so far is to put best buff on the coinage (speed), unless you care about coal (profit).
Good stuff ...
Yes...actually it seems to be if you care about the extra coal being spent...then put the buff on the smelter or coinage, cuz if you put it on the mine then you will use twice the coal to process the ore. And if you care about speed and coal then put it on the coinage. But if you don't care about speed and the extra coal doesn't bother you then anyone of the 3 will doQuote:
Originally Posted by Vernis
A question was recently asked of me:
Should I buff a lv5 Mine with Quality Shafts or a lv5 coinage with a stadium snack.
Lv5 Mine with Quality Shafts: 580 ore / 12h * 36 hr = 1740 ore / 36hr
The stadium snack would produce 6960 ore (3480 more than Irma baskets -- 3480 more bars -- and 1740 more coins)
Lv5 Coinage: 145 coins / 12h * 36 hr = 435 coins / 36hr
The stadium snack would produce 1740 coins (870 more coins than Irma baskets).
With Quality Shafts, the math is now flipped in favor of the mines (but the coal and basket costs are still higher).
Well, you're forgetting the fact that buffs have times on them. So if you have limited amount of buffs, it matters where you apply the buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wujcio
If you buff the coinage you get a good output.
But you have to buff the smelter twice to get the same output. I'll post my calculations in the next posting.
So here's the problem. If you had only 1 BUFF. And you had to place it somewhere Smelter or Coinage. Where would you place it.
Let's assume you have 1 BUFF (4x stadium snack for 24hrs). (Assume all buildings are level 5. And you have only a finite fixed amount of ore already mined).
So let's say you have 2400 ores only.
Let's do some comparison.
If you apply it to the Coinage it will consume exactly 1200 bars which is all the 2400 ores. (in 24hrs time).
Those 1200 bars will give you 1200 coins. (normally the ratio for coinage is 4:1) so buffing it with x4 = 4:4. (unbuffed bars ratio is 2 ores to 1 bar.)
If you apply it to the Smelter, in 24hrs the smelter will be able to make only 2400 bars buffed. consuming 1200 ores. gives you 600 coins (unbuffed)
That means the remaining 1200 ores need to be smelted unbuffed.
2400 bars from the buffing smelt time + 600 bars from the unbuffed time. = (600coinss + 150coins) = 750 coins total.
As you can see it's better to apply it to the coinage.
Because you need twice as many buffs items to apply it to the smelter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smurdley
(Remember you have a limited number of buff items to use. if it was unlimited buffs, then it won't matter.)
Quality Shafts is twice as fast to mine. But applying a stadium buff to it won't give you more coins in the end. It will only give you 600 coins.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBest
1 stadium buff in 24hrs.
It is always better to put it on the Coinage.
You only have 1 snack right?
Snacks are very limited. Use them wisely.
Stadium buff on a normal mine will only give you 300 coins (assuming the rest of the chain is unbuffed).
So basically the best thing to do is ALWAYS buff the 2x buff on the mines, and the 2x buff on the smelter. and your best buffs on the coinage.
Since your best buff is very limited in supply. x3,x4 etc...
Once you run out of your best buff, then go with the x2 buff on the coinage. (this info should be a given).
It 'appears' that way on a spread sheet just calculating based on the buffs and outputs.Quote:
Originally Posted by LadySilverDagger
BUT you're failing to factor in the "buff time" and how many buff items you will consume. Your assumptions are based on the fact that you have unlimited buffs that you can use at all times. Which is not always true. I made a posting comparing 1 single buff duration on each of the chain points and it resulted in coinage being the best.
You have to factor in how many buffs items are consumed.
everyone seems to not calculate IT'S ONLY PIXELS 20
I have to disagree. If you had the ore available in the mine, and coal was not an issue, the output of a lv5 gold mine with quality shafts is almost twice as efficient with the stadium snack than putting it on the lv5 coinage.Quote:
Originally Posted by RonEmpire
I still stand by my earlier post that says on a balanced gold chain, if you use it on anything other than the coinage, all you get is inventory and not faster production. But the quality shafts certainly throws a new twist into the calculations.
Even if you just had the 3480 'excess' ore and sold it at 0.335 each (current listed price) -- you could expect to sell the excess ore for 1165 -- which is still more than the 870 from the coinage. With the gold mine offering a 33.9% better return.
you can do it 30
Maybe I missed something here. But what's the time for a quality shalf mine? half speed right? 12mins becomes 6mins ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBest
That means you'll get an out put of 4800 ores only during 24hrs. assuming it has 1200 ores sitting around.
that produces only 600 coins (assuming that you had only 1 snack and have the rest of your chains unbuffed).
Again its better to put your 1 snack on the coinage.
24hrs for 4x on a coinage will give you 1200 coins.
The question was where is the 1 snack going to make a difference while the rest of the chain gets unbuffed.
i just roll with it 73
4800 ores sells for 1608 coins if you put it in the trade office (0.335 unit price). You can put it on an unbuffed smelter and coinage and turn it into 600 coins -- or use irmas baskets and get 2400 coins.Quote:
Originally Posted by RonEmpire
1608 coins > 1200 coins -- and the snack on a lv5 quality-shaft gold mine is better than a lv5 coinage.
The 2400 coins is why the ore fetches 1608 coins -- which is well more than enough to cover the cost of coal/baskets and still have a decent profit margin.
And most people have a friend that they can trade the stadium snack to -- and get 36 hrs out of it.
But it only works for the quality shafts --- the normal mine would be 2400 ore
(ignoring selling it on the TO).
The problem is that you have only 1 snack. The question was asked where is the best place to put the 1 snack on. (you don't have infinite snacks.)
If you had a limited supply of 2400 ores to start: (already mined).
If you put the snack on the coinage. It will give you 1200 coins. (from a limited supply of 2400 ores only, UNBUFFED from smelter).
If you put the snack on the smelter. It will give you only 750 coins. (it only spits out 2400 bars, which only gives 600 coins, but you have to process the other ores unbuffed because you have no more snacks. so you get 150 coins from the remaining and thus 750)
LIKE I said. snack on the mine, will only give you 600 coins from 1 snack.
If you had a 2x buff and it was unlimited, and you applied it through the chain, it won't matter. The math comes out to be the same where the limited 24hrs that you have to make the most of the 4x. It's the coinage.
Using TO is not a good example, as the economy changes time to time and people may not buy it.
You can't disagree that the coinage is the best place for the snack. You have to think of 'limited supply problem. the limited supply here is the 1 snack.
Okay. I take that back. I understand now what you're saying. The snack on the MINE actually is better. Because you get more inventory.
Yeah. You're right. After doing some number crunching again. The snack is best used on the quality shaft mine if you had only 1 of it.
And unlimited (baskets to use) meaning you buffed everything else in the chain.