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Well, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your response. I can support this as explained. As long as there is adequate training and oversight, I can see how this could be a positive program. There are players here who care about the community and would want to help out for altruistic reasons. I hope you are able to find these people in your application process.Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_Susurrously
ok I opened an account on the "sandycove" server to play there too one of the "unbiased, objective, and reasonable" moderators there banned me because of my name. this name I'm sure if look at anyone's name I could find something somewhere offensive about everything. all I did was basically say hi in chat. now I'm sure it was just some personal vendetta from a "unbiased, objective, and reasonable" player here in Zeus that's a mod there and I upset. so in my opinion this is just a shady way of this company backing out of a game hoping it will cause enough distrust that players just go to other games and a few will. and with the amount of new players stating which seems to be dropping looks like a "save face" get out of dodge card you're starting with chat mods
I agree with the need for moderation but not BBs proposed implementation of it.
Firstly the Chat rules need to be clarified, the Forum states that NO small talk is permitted in Trade tab, but BBs in game say that it is allowed as long as it doesnt disrupt.
We cant have 2 rules floating around causing confusion!
Secondly the idea of Anonymous moderation is bonkers imo, it holds little to no accountability for a moderators actions in game. If i was a moderator and worried more about a friendship then moderation, I really shouldnt be a moderator. They need to be as impartial as possible. And if it got to that stage where i didnt want to ban a friend, i could just ask another mod to do it for me. That way my friends still dont know! But there is an element of accountability.
I agree that we should be able to vote in/out or moderators, but what is the point in that if all their actions are annonymous we wont know who did what, who is over reacting or whatever.
As the program currently stands I think You will lose many players from this game. BB need to look at the rules and clarify any that have any contradictions. The whole CM program needs to be thought out not just thrown together to make it look like you care.
As I said, I support the need for moderation but not in its current proposed form
Geboren.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geboren
A bit of explanation is in order, I think. By anonymous, we mean that the moderator will not be tied to their player account. They will moderate from a new account that must adhere a set of rules. To ensure impartiality, bans and infractions will be reviewed by one of our team members. If/when the infraction was given in error, it will be lifted and erased from the player account. We will be, in essence, moderating the moderators to ensure that they are impartial.
As for the community voting in/out moderators - this is not an option. The moderation team will be chosen based on BB support standards and must be controlled by our team. As always, players may still contact Support to discuss moderators actions or to contest a moderator action.
So - how would dual-account rules and login apply to such a player? I do believe that would make playing both accounts in the same browser impossible and would nullify the desire to moderate as much. a player might be semi-afk for hours, but would they be as likely to be semi-afk on a moderator account if their main account cannot login? Even if i had been interested in a chat moderator, this right here would of just caused me to lose all interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_Rawren
Without going into too much detail, there are separate tools that will be available to moderators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconus2004
it already happened once with a CL ranting when one of his guildies had an issue on a Loot Spot with a respectable player none the less. So whats to say it won't happen again and this time that person has power now too? as a company you can't go and run a background check on a player or do a psych eveal on them, how do you know what they will do when the situation presents itself?
ahh anonymous --great now they can settle their scores "anonymously" with no repercussions. Just like in the real world if someone in management wants to "get" you it is extremely easy to make it look legit. Ive been on both sides of the fence.
It really disturbs me that the "dynamics" of the chat community is not understood at all. This game is not all that exciting in plain English. Without an "enjoyable" chat community to fall back on its really going to fade away.
I have found two people in global who say they they want chat mods one has applied to be one other I dont think was serious. That leads me to believe that "lurker community" (yes it exists) is behind this. They claim they are "skeered"of big bad hostlie global. BS Well once they get there way ,they will still lurk. Exhibit A for that was when many chat regs boycotted global when first round of CLs appeared. Chat died --was hysterical watching people go "hi" Hi" "What should we talk about?" "I dont know?" etc etc topper was when we had BBs coming in telling jokes to try and get some life in it.
Oh and those seven yr olds that were mentioned in previous posts --wonder how much money is being pulled in from that group and the under 18 crowd in general.?
However couple suggestions --many chat rooms show everyone in the room whether they are speaking or not . When they enter when they leave. Basic programming. Lets give the lurkers some accountability.
Also since we have "extra" globals lets make the ability to let people start own room either password/non pass word protected and with the ability to mod there own room. Not ban but be able to kick players from room. Have seen this done before also. You list general topic in room title and name of player that started it.
pochucker i agree and the "lurkers" will soon have what they want....NO GAME
I am not a lurker, and i am all for moderation. Just not the way the are planning to implement it currently. For us to have NO say in who becomes a CM is ludicrous when we were able to suggest and point out why we thought certain players were CLs.
If BB carry on down the route they are going I agree GFM soon there will be no game. Sad that after all this feedback BB still refuse to listen. Makes one think do they want the game to shut down?
And how long will that "review" process take BB_Rawren? I don't imagine that it will be a high priority given the number of other serious game issues that need to be resolved at the current moment. Personally, I would be more comfortable if the moderators could only recommend punitive action to a BB, who could then review the alleged infraction and determine whether or not punitive action is appropriate.Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_Rawren
I tried to give the mods a chance but i guess if u use another word that may have another meaning its not allowed...like crap, butt etc. TBH thats not bypassing the chat filter, spacing and actually typing the bad word is. Also no offense but how do mods from one server know and understand the dynamics in the other? Never had any issues with mods until today and i tell u what, i am NOT happy with their conduct!! UBI needs to get a clue and know this isnt gonna work. Also if i cant chat reg in help tab then they shouldnt be in global asking for help. A CL from another server decided to have a 10 min help convo in global one which shouldve been taken to whisper or help tab. I mean come on UBI...all these titles are ruining the game!!
Angel I am sure that you feel like you had that experience and I doubt that BB or the person moding chat wanted you to feel that way. If I review this entire thread the feeling I get is that
1) There will be plenty of training and oversite of the mod team
2) Any action taken by a moderator or CL is up for review by BB
3) Moderators are held to high standards if they have to use the tools they have
I think this is a needed change not only to protect the gamers of whatever age but also to make chat more enjoyable. I have yet to see anyone get in trouble without reason and I think they are doing their best to make this game work for all ages. The settlers will never grow if we dont move forward. I think a lot of the technical questions have been answered and they are working on them.
I would suggest giving this new thing a chance before you pass judgement already. Its a new program.
And @ Dirkjon- if someone is modding and someone is breaking the rules there may not be time to bump it to a BB when action is needed immediately.
The one thing I don't like is the MODs threatening people with their ability to ban. I think banning should be used as a last resort, not thrown around like a random joke. I've heard of two instances in which the MODs have threatened to ban people... the BBs have never done this (at least from what I have seen). They give someone a warning but they never out right tell them that they are going to be banned....
Guys, lets give them a little time. These are rookie mistakes, they'll learn. Modding isn't easy, it's a fine line to know when to intervene and when not to, and they are volunteers still in training. If we give them a chance, and gently point out the issues instead of harassing them (as I've already seen some players do) it will go easier for everyone. I'm sure they'll chill out once they're more comfortable in their positions and with the rules.
1) We don't want itQuote:
Originally Posted by brockb86
2) We totally agree
3) We have no say
GL mods.. hope you don't catch to much grief over your new powers
it's going to come back to "vendetta banning" one of these "secret" players will have an itchy trigger finger when it comes to someone that they don't like. its goin to happen its human nature. my question is why not just pull the plug on a dying game and not try to justify its death by adding mods and blaming them. but whatever i spent the last real money on this game not because of the addition of mods but the lack of new "real" content like things promised 2 years ago. and if i get a perma ban them i guess its better for the next gaming company that gets my money. for the most part chat has been dead for a good while with little or no need for moderation and the occasional fool that opens an account will always happen but usually just another player telling said player to stop worked. i wish you guys luck in this and hope to play other games with most
I got to say this whole thing is mind boggling. People have been "chatting" a certain way for in excess of two yrs and then one day they decide to "lay the law down".(yes the law has been there) How do they do it? By using non BB employees (can you say cannon fodder or maybe "recruits) at least do the dirty work yourself BB so we at least know were not being targeted by overzealous wannabes with axes to grind.
Oh and when it comes to implementing change there are basically two ways to go --get the existing "community leaders" on board or make an example out of them. I would say its pretty obvious which way they haven chosen to go.
I can't imagine a mod being able to act more quickly than a player typing "/ignoreadd ***". That's truly "immediate". If someone's offending you then self moderate and don't wait for someone else to do if for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by brockb86
I completely agree with you G_F_M. People spend money on this game, and one player should not have the ability to kick another player out of a game that the other player has spent money on. We have already seen several examples of BB_smurfs giving out bans that in some cases maybe should not have been given out. I would choose to assume mistakes rather than accuse any one BB of abuse, but the point is that Blue Byte employees have made mistakes, and if they can make mistakes then player CM's can be expected to make mistakes as well. If the CM who banns another player who should not have been banned is identified, then there will be war with that CM. If the CM who makes a bad decision is not identified then it will not take long before all CM's become suspect. Can you think of a better way to turn players against players? Giving banhammers to CM's will tear the community apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by G_F_M
These rules that they are enforcing did not just come out of the blue, and while they may or may not have always existed, they were not always enforced. A few years ago we got some really bad trolls in global. These trolls were using software to continuously paste and send walls of spam that pushed whatever someone else wrote up the chat window faster than you could read it, and when they weren't spamming they were being rude to kids and openly discussing things that should not have been discussed on a public channel. They were also multi-accounting, so you could beat them with the iggy stick until the iggy stick broke and you'd just get the same guy back a few hours or a day later with a new name that you hadn't blocked. And when the trolls did sometimes let off for a bit, there was a whole guild full of Mormons waiting to start preaching and giving sermons to everybody, trying to browbeat other players into converting. Then there was the neo-**** in his one man guild called KKK, and a few other people who were doing and saying very objectionable and disruptive things in chat...
And that's when UBISoft implemented the parser program that censors chat. Its also about the same time when they put a 5 second cooldown on talking in global and when they got the BB_smurfy blue mods to come in and start enforcing rules against multi-accounting, against racial slurs and against religious political or *** talk. The moderators seem to have forgotten that the purpose of these rules is to prevent players from abusive or objectionable behavior that may be expected to offend another player or prevent that other player from enjoying the game. The people responsible for the objectionable conduct are mostly gone now, and by continuing to enforce these rules with chat bans against people who are just trying to have fun and have not done anything that is inappropriate or ought to offend anyone, the way these rules are being enforced has become more of a problem than a solution.
BB collects money from the gems that are sold for this game, and is therefore responsible for it. Over-moderation will kill the game just as dead as no moderation will, and to solve this is going to take a little bit more than just switching the brand of chat cop. BB has to find the happy medium where the rules can be enforced against players whose conduct may be either inappropriate or objectionable, without allowing the old solution to become a new problem for the players that aren't doing anything wrong.
Well said Scott, and a nice history lesson :)
I'm all for controlling spam and trolls and inflammatory conversations, and if the smurfs aren't going to be here to do it, (and it's been indicated that they aren't) player mods seem to be the only solution. But mods need to learn when to speak up and when to let it go. One joke/statement/comment does not generally warrant stepping in...it only becomes an issue if it's continued, escalates, disrupts chat, severely annoys multiple players.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by psaltery
[Post redacted. Please keep in mind that posts naming and shaming particular players, in addition to posts questioning moderation activity will be removed, as per the Code of Conduct.] - BB_Rawren
dirkjon, im afraid calling a specific mod out, in the forums, will only get yourself in trouble :(
youve said you sent in a ticket, let the BB's handle it
I couldn't agree more. Stirring up havoc doesn't solve anything. Same as putting a person on the wall against 500 people and throwing rocks at him/her.Quote:
Originally Posted by psaltery
as spikescopilot posted in a thread long removed "the FAILBOAT" with something for everyone
Well one thing for sure consistency certainly is not among their virtues. Post link to y-tube song immediately get warning and told that it is unacceptable to post links. Later with same mod about watch two people post links with no repercussions. I think we all know what that smacks of --especially since one pf the posters had just been chatting up the mod. Consistency is key to this program --so far I have not seen it.
I think this is the best response I could even have for this situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by psaltery
Be prepared for the longest and most straightforward response I can give. As I try to understand your perspective I want you to try to understand my perspective.
We are all trying a new thing, which has been well established on other servers. As our server has developed a different personality due to the different moderation style that the other servers have employed. Some say that we are much less strict on moderation but I say that we simply have different approaches. The rules are still the rules and the moderators have been instructed to warn players before any action is taken unless the violation is so severe that immediate removal from chat is necessary. By severe, think illegal activity, extreme trolling, or return of banned players.
As a moderator, they have the support of communication with the other moderators, they have my support and they have the support of the Customer Service Reps and the Game Master and hopefully that of the community. I typically do not administer any moderation actions myself, it's rare. I try to warn and divert attention to a new subject, but that doesn't mean that I cannot ban. The reason that I don't is because I want to remain separate from the situation so that I can take the escalated situations such as is in my job description. The one misconception that players have is about my availability to take an escalation. I do not work on weekends or nights, as I'm needed in the office during the week for meetings and other responsibilities. If you have a situation that you would like for me to review, please submit a support ticket and ask for me directly. I will be able to look at it when I am in the office. If you see me online at other times, it's simply because I want to be supportive. On a side note, I like running adventures while I am doing school work at night! What I ask, is your patience until I can get to your issue. I recently came into work on a Monday, after things had become so escalated that there is little that I could do to help and I would like to prevent that in the future.
That being said, I will be supportive of moderation decisions so long as they fall within the guidelines that are presented to them and within the constraints of our code of conduct. I may, however, privately coach them regarding communication methods. If a moderator asks you to stop a specific line of conversation, the best thing you can do is just stop. They've usually asked you because a complaint was made or the whole conversation is going --- "downhill." Going in chat and complaining about the moderator, inciting a boycott, stirring up malcontent in general, or posting about moderation actions will get you a ban from a GM. We only have one GM, let's make his life easier so he can focus on providing in game and forum support. Remember, a warning is just that, a warning. It's not an infraction and it's not a ban. This is all about improvement and giving everyone the benefit of the doubt.
Remember, after all of this is said we're ALL experiencing culture shock right now. This is new for my department in general. This is the first time we've ever had player moderation. This is not new in the industry and we've built the program around the findings of other companies, the European servers, and Moderation Best Practices classes. We're not going into it completely blind but the best laid plan may differ from reality in any situation. We're currently reviewing how things are going and finding coaching points for all involved in the program, including the BB staff here in the US. Give the moderators a break they are trying to learn, escalate your concerns properly so that I can see them while at work, heed warnings, and provide constructive feedback in private. Remember that I'm also working within a set of constraints, so I'm not free to change the moderator program exactly to any specification.
Example I would have to think at some point they were given guidelines and in those guidelines were things mentioned like "posting links". It either is or isnt acceptable. Of course if content is unacceptable then you do what you got to do. I would think other hot button topics were discussed and strict guidelines given --if not then there is problem with the way the roll out was implemented and program should be reformatted and started again when they are "trained".
In my conversations when I ask for clarification nicely I always get the "I dont know" answer. Must be something out there they were told about guess I just havent found it yet.
Just one other comment --you mention other servers, well as everyone knows pretty hard to compare other countries/continents to North America. We are much more used to freedom of speech here. We are aware its a "private server" but we are still expecting much more freer speech than other places in the world.
I can go on daytime TV right now and hear more profanities/sexual innuendo and inappropriate content for 7 yr olds than I have ever seen in global.
The Codes of Conduct can be found in the Codes of Conduct section of the forums. Here are the important ones:
Settlers Online Code of Conduct and Forum Rules - Official Ubisoft rules.
Chat and Conduct Rules Explained - An easier to read, condensed version of the above. If you see anything that you feel needs further explanation or is somehow missing, let us know. That being said, we cannot possibly iterate every single instance of behavior or transgressions that would require moderation as that would be a never-ending task and we are but human.
Global-1, Help and Trade Tab Guidelines - This is the official what is and what isn't allowed in these particular chat channels. Behavior that violates these rules will result in a warning or infractions, based on severity.
I can only second what BB_Susu said in the forums: this is the first time we're doing this, so please expect there to be some road bumps. This program is here for the duration and the only way we can get better is by having the moderators go through their training and spend some time actually moderating.
Also keep in mind that these moderators are volunteers; they are not paid or reimbursed in any way. They have volunteered to help moderate because they love The Settlers Online as much as you do and they want the community to be a healthy, happy place. They are not professional moderators, although some have had moderation experience in the past. If you feel that a moderator action needs further review or adjustment, please escalate it to our Support team and ask for a review from BB_Susurrously. That is the proper channel to exact your specific concerns about moderators, not via the forums.. Let's give them some time to adjust and learn their new roles and remember - they're only human!
According to the Codes of Conduct pretty much any player can be banned for anything for any length of time without warning, wow!
I started playing on this server shortly after it was started and the standard has been to warn a player that they are getting close or have crossed a line before banning them. I guess now that I have been banned once, anything I say in chat is considered 'severe' (even good morning) and can be punished by an all chat ban without warning, without reason, for any length of time, wow! Really? Even though this is possible, do you think it is a good business model? I mean to have a hidden tyrant smashing you without even a word, for whatever reason they want to. (they don't like you)
Don't I also deserve a little respect? Shouldn't I be able to say 'hello' in Global chat without fearing another day without ALL chat? I now have to wonder about the possible motivations of volunteers constantly banning people without warning.
I hope you won't consider anything in this post to be 'malicious'. I'm trying to offer my concerns about the direction the game is heading not trying to 'flame' anyone or to 'insight discontent'. I have alot invested in this server and would like to continue to enjoy the game without fear. This game has been a daily stress reliever for me, but now I have to worry about my every word and action... that isn't fun. That doesn't relieve stress, it creates it.
...not that I'm trying to get banned again (but it seems a very real probability since I don't know what I did wrong) can I just get banned from Global instead of ALL chat if it does happen?
In Susu's rather lengthy post on the previous page:
"The rules are still the rules and the moderators have been instructed to warn players before any action is taken unless the violation is so severe that immediate removal from chat is necessary. By severe, think illegal activity, extreme trolling, or return of banned players."
These mods are new and still learning, and bound to make mistakes. Bring it to their managers, and let them work it out. They can go back and look at chat logs to determine if the ban was justified or not, and take action to train the mod more, if necessary.
I agree with you, the game should not be a stressful place for its players.
One option would be: just for now, stick more to guild chat, help, and trade, and less in global, until the mods are more comfortable in their positions. Or even invite all your friends to join you in another global channel, as they are not modded.
But they have been modded recently..we tried going to a few others and mods keep showing up there also. So we are stuck unfortunatly and plink I understand COMPLETELY as no warning was issued to me as well. Its gotten to not be any fun coming here like it used to be. I was talking about my roses the other day and was told to change topic??? i mean we need some concise rules here as it seems new ones are being added every day. And I agree, especially as Guild leader, not having guild chat is awful difficult.
The rules have become very confusing. A friend of mine was banned from chat for talking about farting. The next day, someone began talking about drugs (I believe the term used was mary-jane) and the MOD said that he saw nothing wrong with what was said. I don't understand this. I was under the impression the frivolous discussion such as "farting" was ok, but that drugs was prohibited...
And some people still ask me why I don't visit global chat.
lol Wimpy
tickets, tickets, tickets. If enough valid complaints are issued against the same mod, action will have to be taken.
That said, antagonizing the mods only makes things worse (not saying you guys have done that, just saying it happens.)
Be polite to them, don't criticize them in public. Whisper them and ask for specifics when issued a warning/ban.
Save screenshots of the conversation, both whispers and chat, as evidence you've done nothing wrong.
And if you did do wrong and you know it, take your spanking like a man and move on ... :)
Wow! I went and read the Code of Conduct and since I was released from ban I was trying to help to others from getting banned by warning them when they were getting close to crossing the line and guess what happened? Yep I got banned again without warning. the reason that was given to me is "we don't make the rules" ... ok so what did I do wrong? Of course I have submitted another valid complaint (in my opinion) but lack evidence as my chat failed ... I couldn't get screen captures. (how convenient) In my opinion, trying to be as objective as possible, many of the moderators are banning people because they are losing their tempers or just don't like someone, what else could explain the extreme inconsistencies in enforcement. While it may be difficult to keep yer emotions out of a situation like that, it is imperative that a person holding the job of moderator, volunteer or not, remain objective and unemotional. If that isn't possible you simply aren't cut out for the position.
Every time that I have gotten banned I lose ALL chat, I can't whisper them and they won't answer mails except maybe to say "the reason you were banned was clearly presented to you in the notification", by the time I find out I have done something wrong I have been banned again and there is nothing left to take screen shots of. The last three days I have been banned three times and as of yet I have yet to get anything that warned about my behavior. And the bans aren't limited to Global-1 anymore Der Sturmtruppen have begun harassing Global-2, Global-5, Help Tab, Trade Tab and Whispers.Quote:
Originally Posted by psaltery
wow, so sorry to hear that plinkerton. i havent heard of issues that bad over here on zeus.
from what i understand, they are not sposed to mod channels 2-30 AT ALL. BB wouldnt even give us a mod to help with a player sponsored game.
this doesnt sound good at all. im hoping all 3 were the same mod, and not difft mods all with issues. ive been a mod on games before, so i know it isnt an easy job. that said, i also agree that warnings are necessary and you have to be as impartial as possible. you cant correct your behaviors if u honestly dont know what u did wrong.
if you can at least give them the time of day it happened, they can go back and look at chat logs (screenshots just makes it more convenient.) i hope things get better for you guys...