Is it too soon to have a thread for the possible combat changes?

It looks like there will be wholesale changes that will require everyone to completely revamp their islands and change every single adventure guide and watch as the entire trade system goes much crazier than it already is now. Suffice to say, I expect to see nothing but an endless barrage of negative comments saying this will ruin the game, because people don't like change. Then I will assume we will see honest assessments by people not blind with rage. Many will quit, many will embrace it. I can't imagine it will be implemented before next year, so there's plenty of time to hoard weapons and play the quests you expect will get much harder to prepare for it.

All I know is that once this goes online for real, it's going to take literally a half-year plus for everything to settle into place again. I await the future ... unless, you know, I get to lvl 50 and then quit before the change occurs. :)

It's not the change. It's a complete overhaul of the entire game. The production ratios are changed for the weapons. Imagine replacing 90% of your BS with Steel/Iron and Damas swords. Now calculate how much coal will you need to make them, how much time will you need to remake your troops. Granted you will have enough room to fit all of that. Most people will be able to do 2-3 adventures a week instead of 2 a day as now. Imagine the cost, time and effort to remodel your island toward this. This will be a different game, not the one you are playing now...

So basically the vast majority of people will quit now. I mean some change is fine, but most people simply won't want to start from scratch.

Here is the skinny about how the combat changes will affect economy:

10 Bronze Weapon Smith:
Production – 5500 BS every 12 hrs (optimal placement near SH)
Needs – 5500 Bronze Bars (5500 copper +5500 coal) +11000 coal

That allows me to train 1000 R a day – 1 adventure per day an average.

Most likely we would have to replace this with those weapon makers:

2 Bronze 1000 BS
4 Iron 2000 IS
2 Steel 300 SS
2 Damas 150 DS

Needs – don't even want to calculate all the copper, coal and iron to make them. Additionally to make BS you only need Bronze smelts. You are going to have to pop some extra iron and steel smelters and keep about half the copper smelters anyway. Got room?

The total input will allow me to train 100R 200M 30S and 15 ES per 12 hrs
Even if BB twicks a bit the cost down of weapons to make the units.. its a drop in a bucket.

I am not losing 1000R, 500M and 400S to do Black Knight and get some freaking salt. Are you OUT OF YOUR MINDS?

Yesterday was day one of the first version of the possible rebalancing. As usual people panic and go crazy. There are things to like about it. There are things to hate about it. There will likely be many changes and several versions before anything gets close to being implemented. I'd advise people to actually go test it for yourself. It's not near as bad as most of the doom and gloom I've heard from most people. There has been good work done by many on test to understand and take advantage of the new rules. I'd expect a sim sometime in the next week if there isn't one already finished. I definitely prefer our current combat to Version 1 of the rebalance. But that doesn't mean we won't end up with something good by the time it's done. I'll wait to pass judgement until we see a finished product.

This is way to big of a change for people to stay on sidelines. Screwing up MA, making R and B obsolete? Making them weaker I get it, I could sign up for this but not useless. The advance weapon makers are not even close to the levels of production that those new changes will demand in order to continue doing adventures. And additional to more demand - weapons are removed from the loot? It's not gloom or doom its freaking scary. I have been doing 1 adventure a day an average and I was very happy about it. Sometimes I did 1 epic sometimes 2 easier ones. Now? I'll be lucky to do 2 pr 3 per week. That changes the game completely.

Giving all enemies splash dmg renders our recruits and bowmen obsolete. That is not a mistake or a bug. That's BB move forcing us to use Militia Soldiers and Elite S instead. That move is very, very costly and putting hell lot of burden on all of us. Adventures will no longer be fun. Just a freaking chore to get to 50. And then what? Would you play a game demanding of you to do chores day after day?

They better adjust those changes fast...

I often run 6 to 7 adventures in a day. I won't be happy if the final product is a system where we are having heavier losses that take longer for the same rewards. But I'm far from convinced that is the case. Changes will be made. Loot might be improved. This version u see on test will not ever make it to Live. Vent your frustrations with the new setup in the test feedback. Help them understand what your problems are with it. The next version that comes out may be more to your liking. Many people are just upset because it's different. I have no problem with a new system with different rules. Learn the new rules and adjust.

As bunch of people from test forums said it in almost every post: "What is the (freaking!) goal of those changes?" NOBODY was asking for this. I would like to know as well. Heavier losses I can live with. Making some units obsolete - no. All of this so they can sell unlimited Iron mine? If those changes come life I see this coming next to shop within 30 days of the switch.

NOBODY was asking for this. We deserve explanation why suddenly adventures will cost double (or more) amount of troops and not only the number but also cost of them being advance units. This will change the entire game and like so many people I would also like to know why?

You are forgetting a very important point here Methius. Not every player is 50. You might feel the change as a pinch, but this game has lots of players who don't spend gems on Vets, MA, and all the goodies. How will that affect their play? "Rich" (gems and resources) guys will adjust with time. How about the "less rich folks"? Doubling the cost of doing adventures will surely hinder their game and their progression. Did BB think about this?

Why not make few more epic advies (like FT) with increased reward/ risk ratio, with new troops of higher HP and dmg and let the 50ies go full steam wipe their barracks on those. That bugs me. Instead BB decided to overhaul entire game. It WILL have consequences...

Guildie was trying to do Dark Priest. Granted there is no block set up yet and everything is try and fail she wiped 400C around tons of other troops and wiped 18 generals on the try. Tell me this is a welcome change for average folks.

Any idea how will it affect new players who need to clear home island first? "Bloody" Mary will surely become legendary :)

Well obviously losing 400c on Dark Priest wouldn't be a welcome change :). But I'm wondering if your guildie managed to learn the new rules before he sent out his attacks. I saw someone yesterday claiming RB would now take 2k cav to defeat. It's the end of RB forever he said. Meanwhile ScriptX was doing excellent work making a new RB guide while trying to understand the new rules. Something like 341r 300m 370 soldier losses on his first try. There was also already a pirates guide out yesterday with around 500 recruit losses without blocking any camps. Neither of those are ideal. But that was Day 1. Better results will come with time. There is a lot of work that still needs to be done. There are probably a lot of tweaks to the system that will have to be made. Personally I'd like to see splash damage go away. There might be enough reasonable negative feedback to make them consider that. The system may be overhauled several times before we see a version that's suitable for live.

So far folks saying 2 important things that makes huge difference. One is splash dmg to all units. This is causing massive losses on some advies. Why all units have splash dmg and not only range? Beats me.

Two the order of attack is making R and B obsolete. They just get wiped without doing much (or any) dmg. BB really need to tweak this A LOT. And removing weapons from adv loot is the dumbest idea ever especially when now advies will need even more of them.

Some1 did IOTP losing Xbows with pretty good results. Have you check the time production on those? Sigh...

too soon

My question is what is BB purpose in changing the system? What is the end game strategy for this change? Was it asked for by the players, either new or old? I did not see an explanation as to what was trying to be achieved. For example do they want more people actually building weapons rather than getting them as loot from adventures, so they made this change? Generally you don't make major coding changes with some defined purpose and expected outcome, but here it is not clear, unless they believe it will generate more revenue.

well for most that have played for a while weapons drop has already filled our store houses and star. the only players this is going to hit hard are new players. yes at first seasoned players will complain, as they build the needed buildings, but they will be using up weapons they already have. the new player trying to buy overpriced LSs are the ones that will be left hanging. i built every building as the quests came up and still have them, ok i'll upgrade the cannon chaim and the dama chain, but in the meantime i'll be using the stuff i've gathered over the last couple years. and of course the noob fleecers will be out in force making the game even worse for anyone trying to start out. BB should have come up with a way to take out coin somehow besides the few upgrades then worked on changing the game. the players with the 400 coinages will overbid and outpay any new player. and if this is BBs way of bringing the numbers of players down to do like the game Ultima did and shut down well i thought that was what the mods were for

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Originally Posted by Pinkleet

Here is the skinny about how the combat changes will affect economy:

10 Bronze Weapon Smith:
Production – 5500 BS every 12 hrs (optimal placement near SH)
Needs – 5500 Bronze Bars (5500 copper +5500 coal) +11000 coal

That allows me to train 1000 R a day – 1 adventure per day an average.

Most likely we would have to replace this with those weapon makers:

2 Bronze 1000 BS
4 Iron 2000 IS
2 Steel 300 SS
2 Damas 150 DS

Needs – don't even want to calculate all the copper, coal and iron to make them. Additionally to make BS you only need Bronze smelts. You are going to have to pop some extra iron and steel smelters and keep about half the copper smelters anyway. Got room?

The total input will allow me to train 100R 200M 30S and 15 ES per 12 hrs
Even if BB twicks a bit the cost down of weapons to make the units.. its a drop in a bucket.

I am not losing 1000R, 500M and 400S to do Black Knight and get some freaking salt. Are you OUT OF YOUR MINDS?

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With the New combat system, Losing recruits will be pointless now. You'll have to mostly use Militia/Soldiers on BK with it.

As someone on test forums said it eloquently BB have no clue what are they starting. The changes are so deep and will have such a tremendous impact on everybody (especially new players). Going to 50 will take 3 to 5 more time then it used to simply because we will do about 1/3 or 1/5 of the adventures we are doing now.

As it is now ALL adventures will be much more time consuming, much more expensive to do and with advance weapons taking more resources and longer time to make... I can't see myself even going to 50 at this point. Xbows for IOTP? Militia replacing Recruits as cannon fodder? And where are we to put all those iron, steel smelters (additional to bronze) to support such radical change?

The economy was booming because people were doing 5-7 advies a week in a spare time. It will go into a stall and wrack when this will drop to 2 a week per player (average) and in time when adv weapons are needed even more they remove them from loot drops? You guys can't NOT see the consequences of such changes - especially to players under 50.

You are also forgetting one thing. Majority of your stuff you selling on TO is to players under 50 who don't have yet the luxury cozy ls of BK and RB and they still need your resources. Making the game much more difficult for them will be A. inducing them to play more or B. saying the hell with this and going somewhere else? And once they are gone... who will you sell your resources to?

I'm starting to think that BB's goal is to stop the Blocking and make use more Militia/Soldiers instead of just Recruits/Bowmen. Lol

I am fine with that. IF : resources needed for making those weapons are in similar equivalent to BS, speed of making them is greatly increased and time of training adv unit is decreased. THAT IS NOT THE CASE. That are reasons why economy will go belly up if those changes are implemented as is. It takes over 1 hr to make 5 damasc sw (lev 5 smith) which means you are able to train 6 Elite soldiers per 12hrs (you don't have weapons from loot anymore). What if an adventure will call to lose 100 of them? How often will you do it?

The math on Steel and Iron swords is a bit better but... now you will have to train Militia like you train Recruits now in thousands. Can your island support this? Changes to combat system are only the tip of the iceberg. Not sure if all of my iron depos will sustain 4 Iron smiths running non-stop. Forget the titanium ore needed for Damasc sw and xbows... People on test can see it with ease. Are the devs freaking blind?

And even if the 50ies can stomach and adjust, can rest of the players too? Not everyone playing the game is 50 and most people actually don't or spend very little on gems. Those changes will be super harsh on those players.

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Originally Posted by Troll-Phu

too soon

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^^

I regret selling all those iron and steel swords now.

At any rate, this is way too early to panic, but it;s still fun to do.

Its not too soon. If BB has Endless Iron Mine ready for sale then changes will be fast from test to life. Gems got to flow. And you will be screwed without 1 or 2 of those:P

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Originally Posted by Plumz

Its not too soon. If BB has Endless Iron Mine ready for sale then changes will be fast from test to life. Gems got to flow. And you will be screwed without 1 or 2 of those:P

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Screwed either way because most F2P Players don't have any Endless Copper Mines...

My guess is the closed test server results for pvp were rather bad, and this is their attempt to make pvp work. Traditionally changes such as this are made when the status quo is seen as unsustainable.

I myself do not care about the cost of rebuilding (moving buildings is what ticks me off) - I accept that. However - they will need to rebalance resource costs (likely coal) as well as times.

Be patient - this is a long process, and the combat system fail might be why we dont have pvp yet.

I do have patience. What I don't have is confidence in the devs anymore. Some1 already calculated it takes all iron depos (lev3) to feed 1 iron smelt at lev 5. Means you can practically have max of 2 Iron smelts working 24/7 on your island. How are they supposed top support all those Militia needed to do adventures with the new system?

It is not what the devs are thinking. It is what hey don't know about their won game that is embarrassing. Common sense (to me) would be this order. Lets check how many different weapons the players realistically can make first. Lets have some predictable numbers of available units from production stand point and then lets see what changes we can make.

This is a domino fall effect. We can't make enough M and S to clear the adventures at a decent rate it is just no possible. Slowing down the adventures also slows down getting loot (titanium ore and Exotic wood) needed to produce more advanced weapons - needed to do adventures...And you come into a stall of 2-3 adventures a week. Of course older players who accumulated tons of weapons in their SH will keep going but, those stockpiles will not last forever. Replacing them with self production only is just not going to cut it and eventually every player will hit the slow down. Can't do adventures for 2 days cause of weapon production choke point. Fine I will just go play another game for 2 days... or ever..

If the devs can't see this as a result of their own changes that means a word I don't want to use here.

If they do see it and still pushing this crap - means they clearly want to close this game down. There is no way people will play it. It will put a tremendous burden on players under 50, slows down their progression to unplayable levels and the cost-reward ratio for adventures will just make us feel like we are being punished not rewarded for our efforts. I don't subscribe to a mmo to do chores. I can stomach some while I do things for fun.

So you have a game with established player base of roughly 2 years. And suddenly you drop on them changes that require of them to remodel their islands, reset their already established production chains, revamp their economy based on those chains and make them work twice harder and double the cost of doing adventures - for the same results.

Does this feel like a smart way to go? The logic on this one just beats me..

I like the "IDEA" of a new combat system but not what is being proposed right now. Higher losses don't scare me because i've run adventures like BK with nothing but BHG's and tavern gens at the time. I've had people in my guild run FT's with nothing but 1 vet and no cannons. You make do with what you have. I agree that changes are necessary even "nerfs" but BB's goal as I understand it can be done very simply and easily without a complete over-hull of the system or requiring players to do mass changes to their island.
1) remove weapons from adventure loot as planned.
2) restrict the amount of recruits that can be taken to a give adventure and scale it by the adventure.
3) adjust resources/times appropriately for weapon chains and barracks.

You're done. You have the same desired effect of people killing other troops and using other weapon chains besides BS. No need for "MAJOR" changes to your island, new sims, new guides, new learning curves and frustrations, etc etc.

I know everyone is quick to judge but what did people do before the MMA? or the MG? or pathing changes to adventures? People did just fine and they will do fine with any new system being implemented (hopefully not the current one being proposed).

If you have frustrations, ideas, hard tested numbers, theories on how this will effect the economy the player base etc. give your feedback in the appropriate forums so changes can be made before they come to live servers. Dont be so quick to grab the pitchforks and gather a crowd when it has been stated many many times already in many many threads that this is just the early stages of the system and they expect a lot to change. As it stands I dont see one single player in game or on the forums that wants the new system the way it is and would find it very very very very hard to believe that given the feedback BB will actually take the new system to live without any changes.

There is a vote of no confidence in devs on test forums. I don't know what are they going to do but as more players/testers I just don't trust them anymore. I think those "proposed" changes clearly state of how little devs know about their own game. Or perhaps this is their intentions. Create choke points and solve them by offering solutions.. in the gem shop (Epic weapon workshop, endless iron mines...). Of course not everyone will buy them, but those who will...easier time doing adventures, might be worth to some the gems spend.

A couple of thoughts.....

My first thought is that lower level players aren't going to be able to do solo adventures for quite some time. If even the lower level advents are consuming soldiers, elites and xbowmen then how are lower level players going to be able to complete them? Those players certainly aren't going to be able to build the troops required to complete the advents and I suspect that they won't be able to obtain the coin that will be required to buy those weapons. Nor will they be able to build the weapon chains required to produce those weapons unless BB reduces the level at which ds, xb, and ss can be built. Starting as a new player and advancing in a reasonable period of time (reasonable being defined as "how long before they become bored and go spend their money elsewhere") will be extremely frustrating.

Next, the concept of "balancing" the combat system by making it harder for new players to participate in and complete adventures does nothing but further unbalance the game by making it harder for new players to advance. How many of us higher level players are sitting on tens and hundreds of thousands of ds, k, ss, horses, saltpeter, titanium, etc? The value of those resources is going to skyrocket and we're certainly not going to give them away. New players aren't going to be able to afford those resources and since they won't drop as loot in the advents that the noobs can't participate in anyway, the noob economy will basically revolve around production of the resources and materials for weapons that they'll need to complete advents (which will take an unreasonable amount of time to do during which I suspect most noobs will quit before they ever spend a dime on the game) or, production and sale of the resources (ore, bars, horses) that the mid and higher level players need to produce the weapons that they need to complete advents.

I would guess that many higher level players don't need any more coin or any more resources. We're going to be able to produce the materials and weapons that we need to continue adventuring without too much heartburn. But, if you (BB) expect to attract and retain new players with new real money to spend then you might want to reconsider many of the proposed changes. I understand that the changes are just in the test phase and are there for the purpose of seeing how they might affect the game. So far, it seems as though the changes are seriously flawed and would further unbalance the game rather than the opposite. Just my 2 cents!

The raw predictions from test are putting a grim picture on everyone under 50. New starting players would get hit the hardest. Not only much more resources will be needed to complete an adventure, but their progression in game will be drastically slower. I still remember my first "real" adventure IOTP. Done with tavern generals it was quite a challenge. I needed 3 days to recover my losses from this.

And all the testing now is done with MA/ MG and Vets. Why someone tries to do DP, Horseback, IOTP, WOTS or even SFTR (I consider them the real leveling adventures after you are done with the mini's - TS and LS) with tavern generals? All the testing is done from a lev 50 player perspectives whith Major Gen and Vets available. How about the noobies with 3 tavern generals? Can they make it? And what will be the cost?

If it cost 400C and 400M to do DP with a vet/MG - how much will it take to do them with tavern generals?

At this point all the talks about the new balance changes are just useless. NOBODY so far was able to finish ANY adventures using tavern generals. BB really screwed the puch on this one and just embarrassed themselves in the eyes of players.

Are they talking about making the payoff of these adventures more rewarding? I know many of the current ones I do only because I want something different, since the cost/benefit (or risk/reward) is very poor as has been pointed out numerous times (e.g. Secluded Adventures). If BB made difficult adventures more rewarding with decent probabilies (really 0.3% for some of the items, why don't they just say no way you're getting it dude) then it becomes a rewarding challenge, and not a punishing challenge. I don't mind risk and failure but there has to be the same level of payoff with success. It is clear with the removal of the weapons as payoff that BB doesn't want that. My original idea is that BB doesn't care a bit about our input, they want a way to generate more revenue, regardless of what havoc it causes the players.

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Originally Posted by sagminor

Are they talking about making the payoff of these adventures more rewarding? I know many of the current ones I do only because I want something different, since the cost/benefit (or risk/reward) is very poor as has been pointed out numerous times (e.g. Secluded Adventures). If BB made difficult adventures more rewarding with decent probabilies (really 0.3% for some of the items, why don't they just say no way you're getting it dude) then it becomes a rewarding challenge, and not a punishing challenge. I don't mind risk and failure but there has to be the same level of payoff with success. It is clear with the removal of the weapons as payoff that BB doesn't want that. My original idea is that BB doesn't care a bit about our input, they want a way to generate more revenue, regardless of what havoc it causes the players.

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I believe they've taken weapons out of the loot, so unless they're going to give us 10x granite I'm not sure the loot gets any better.

Have fun getting competent players to give enough feedback for every camp on every adv.

Really all I've figured out from this is that I will need to only play adventures with Recruit losses only for the foreseeable future.