Why advanced weapons failed - an empirical analysis

Here is data on why Advanced weapon production failed in the past, is currently failing, and will continue to fail unless production ratios and times are severely adjusted. The base unit used here is "Time", measured in Seconds. This time measures the time to make a weapon across all the buildings involved (pinewood cutter, forester, coker, copper mine, copper smelter, and bronze weapon smith: those make a recruit).

You may ask, why does this matter, this time? It matters because we have a finite amount of space and building licenses.

I did this for All 4 melee units, along with bows and longbows - the classic units we plan to lose.

The stat that matters most I feel is effective Hp, measured against the time to produce the weapons used for that unit. This stat is Total time divided by HP (Damage was used for ranged units). BB did a good job in balancing the recruit, and while the rest were brought down - they are not even close to recruit.

As seen below, it is 4.55 times more efficient to use recruits current than militia, 7.45 times more efficient to use than soldiers, and 13.8 times more efficient to use than elites. Longbows also ranked badly, with bows being 3.24 times more efficient than them currently.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2dkdb8m.jpg

The baseline goal I feel should be to get losses in line with the Old recruit in terms of time per HP (elite should be somewhat cheaper, given titan ore has 0 time to produce, and as ore is ~ 6-10% of the cost, it should be about 5-10% cheaper in terms of time to produce

The first area I believe that should be analyzed is cutting the Iron ore needed to make a bar from 4 to 2. Maybe even 1. Upping coker output from 2 logs to 2 coal would also help. Coal time overall is in need of a massive reduction across the higher chains and composes most of the time.

Here is how long it takes to make one unit of coal: 630 seconds. 90 Seconds to chop 1 log. 2 are needed. 135 Seconds to refill log deposit, 2 are needed. 180 Seconds to turn the logs into coal.

Times on Weaponsmiths also I believe need a good bit of work. Damascene should come down to 32 minutes. Steel is good at 24 I think, though 18 should be considered. Smelter time is good across the board. Same for mine times.

So my overall recomendations?

Coker: 2 logs makes 2 coal
Recruit: 5 Swords needed
Iron smelter: 1 or 2 iron ore input
Iron/steel/titanium/damascene: all buildings should consider a 25-50% reduction in coal

Failure to do this, and the weapons will still be way to ornery to make.

I support their idea of the Damascene using only titanium and coal instead of steel. This would fit into this idea well as it will moderately reduce the amount iron consumed in exchange for the more readily produced coal. Now in practice, I'm not sure of the overall effect on island space.

Cost is still too high in terms of actual production.

Also time related and with a significant impact.

It takes 5 minutes for a geologist to find a copper deposit, 2-1/2 minutes for a jolly geo.

It takes 1 hour to find an iron deposit, 1/2 hour with a jolly. That's 12 times longer!

There are 6 copper deposits on island. There are 16 iron deposits on island. All mines for each mineral have to be built to properly support the smelters & swordsmiths.

Most people can find, build & upgrade all their copper mines while drinking their morning coffee, in less time than it takes to even find 1 iron deposit.

This is the taproot of BB's "unbalanced problem" with everything you've analyzed being the fruit. Search times need to be drastically reduced, perhaps the number of iron deposits cut in half from 16 to 8, with each deposit being much larger than current.

Scaling up to 16 fast geos is not that bad, imo, though the build time of mines is a much bigger issue.

Yeah, I do fine with 8 jolly geo's. People who play for free may have a problem. At 100 free gems a week I suppose they could squeak by eventually.

But don't you find the search time being 12 times longer for iron a bit excessive?

The iron mines themselves are 5 minutes each, copper mines are 2-1/2, so only twice the time. If the build time was in the same ratio as the search time, iron mines would take 1/2 hour each!

I wont argue, I did not factor that in tbh.

Draconus2004, Suggestion, perhaps include this on testing server forum, I'm pretty sure the guys from all the other servers would really appreciate your efforts and give your efforts direct visual by BB_Devs from Germany as well. Just my suggestion based on past experience and what happens as a result is pretty darn good.
Cheers;
Asiastrings

i posted it both places

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Originally Posted by Draconus2004

I wont argue, I did not factor that in tbh.

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The main point I'd like to contribute to the discussion is this:

Even if BB were to make the production of soldiers match the time frame of recruits, doing so without addressing the iron deposit search times would be a mistake.

The ease of copper mine maintenance is a huge incentive. The PITA that is iron mine maintenance is a large disincentive.

Your analysis is superb. Thank you for taking the time to do it.

I definitely agree - building 16 iron mines back to back is 80 minutes, along with 6 copper mines, that is 100 minutes. Players dont have that much time always to spare, especially back to back. Iron searching tbh i presumed i'd buy 8 more gifted geos from people.

With the new changes, contrary players will have plenty of time to search for iron, build mines, upgrade them and buff them, because they will be doing 1-3 adventures a week instead 2-4 a day as now.

The game will be all about building your military of 3-5k troops (most advanced units) over a week and than wipe them all within few hrs. Rinse and repeat. How long will it take to make 30k damasc sw to train 3k ES to lose them in FT adventure? It clearly speaks about how lost the devs are on what is keeping people playing the game. Who is going to play a game like this where you need a week of preparation (not even commenting on the cost of all of that) to do 1 adventure? And where in the hell are we to get all the titanium ore needed to make those 3k ES since epic adventures rewarding that will also require to sacrifice ES to complete?

I am sorry but I give up explaining to people without common sense and knowledge of their own game. Any way you look at those changes (from adventures point, economy, trading, production, training units) there are things that just don't make sense. Not 1 or two, PLENTY. Noone argues that changes can't be made, just not LIKE THAT.

Awesome analysis Draconus2004. The bad luck is, that german logic is far, far, far away from american logic.

No-one understand why the battlesystem needs to be fixed. It is just lazy work, changing some numbers. Boring part about this "new stuff" is that there really is nothing new in it. Adventures will be the same, units will be the same - and the panic is the same.

We will of course adapt - but in less than 1 year - we're back to where we are now.

There are SO many irritating things (not all bugs/glitches) that could use attention instead.

BB's climax was the Christmas event. That was awesome. From there on....it just had to go haywire. WC 2014 event was a disaster. If the same dev that did WC 2014 is doing this....may we all have saved up a good pile of laughs.

I will always admire guys/girls that do the dev's job - like you just did Drac - for free. You are a neverending source of inspiration for many players.

BB - come on guys. You can do better than that. You got ALL the strategy players that has loved The Settlers for 0-20 years. For now.

There is also the matter than coal mines take FOUR hours to search for the standard geologist and can run out in like 3 days at level 1. Having to have all of those smelters running under their new idea is going to require insane amounts of coal to keep even. As is, I can profit on coal without even building any mines. Under the new ideas, I will need to have at least a couple of mines going to keep up unless I want to build a tons of pinewood parts for cokers.

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Originally Posted by Koshko

There is also the matter than coal mines take FOUR hours to search for the standard geologist and can run out in like 3 days at level 1. Having to have all of those smelters running under their new idea is going to require insane amounts of coal to keep even. As is, I can profit on coal without even building any mines. Under the new ideas, I will need to have at least a couple of mines going to keep up unless I want to build a tons of pinewood parts for cokers.

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guild market: vote for the recycling! :D

Oh, wait. If I actually had every building on, I'd be in the red for coal. I've had stuff off for so long, I forgot about them.

Yes, I already voted for the recycling plant. I'm not in a guild though, so I'm going to need to do some trading.

I find the idea of these changes, if done right, great. Still, as seen by the changes they made today - they are clueless. Utterly clueless. bakery is 1/9th of the time consumed in a bread chain (1/13th if silo is counted, 3/31th if imp silo is counted). Also changing ratios on all chains - thats a lot of rebuilding and moving - and that WILL upset people. Only change ratios that are completely broken.

The basic inputs are where ALL the time is wrapped up: pinewood logs, hardwood logs, iron ore, copper ore, wheat, and water.

I agree - again. Bad habit. BB got 1 GameMaster on each server - what are those guys doing???? Have you lost the clue? You are for sure making bb look like fools, as what the PLAYERS see now is, that you have NO idea whatsoever - what the game is doing. So - get rid of the gamemasters and read the feedback. Okay - make the sacked GM's read it. He-he...

And still - if this "let's revitalize something old, and make it look like something "new" is from the same hand that made WC 2014 - throw him away - and do something better - ty. The guy that handled WC 2014 - should only be allowed to use a broomstick - not a keyboard....he killed a lot. You still don't get it? WC 2014 hero-in-charge promised the event would be eaiser for low-lvl's....he failed with a huge BANG. And BB are sure no-one noticed. Get a grip.

And in the final end.....the atrocity must be - get some gamemasters that actually play the game. Not some whiners that do a Nords following a guide.

The real moron part is.....you have allowed everyone to become lvl 50 now....when a player becomes lvl 50, he or she knows everything - overnight - and then you want to take away their incredible wisdom?. (but ofc - that is sarcasm.)

Can I pour wet milk in Moonlime' pants, pls?

I am loosing faith in humanity - one person at a time.

lol, but ok let's provide some good feedback to "show" them why it does or it doesn't work. They'll need that if they don't have a clue ;)

They SHOULD know what works. They should know that change in combat asking for sacing 100's of ES, S and thousand of M can't be supported by current design of production and economy. They should know players enjoy doing 1 or more adventures a day. They should know a lot of hings. But they don't. It is unprofessional, embarrassing and shameful. The test server looks like a plumber coming to your home and asking if YOU know how to fix your pipe? I am done expressing my disappointment in the dev team.

Pinkleet... after a couple decades playing online games, let me give you this pearl of wisdom: "knowing" and "caring" are too very, very different concepts: the former is often present, the latter...well...

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Originally Posted by Pinkleet

looks like a plumber coming to your home and asking if YOU know how to fix your pipe?

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interesting analogy

I think I am done with TSO. Lost completely confidence and trust in the devs of this game. They contradict themselves on the reasons of the new "balance" (my ***), the explanation of it seems like a cheating fraud and finally one of the BB's posted in a nice words that if people are leaving because of the proposed changes then bye bye.

Translation: We got your cash, now go with the flow, redo your island give us some more cash or ...Get the Hell out of our game. Thanks for playing scrubs and suckers. Judging from all the posts expressing concerns and disappointment I am not alone in that feeling.