Why the 11/25 update is good, and why weapons should not be in loot

This is why I, personally, fully support Ubi and BB in the new 11/25 patch, and why I believe it is a good thing.

Settlers is, as it's core, a game of balancing production. Having played settlers online for over a year now, and having played several other settlers titles, I can honestly say that the most important part of this game is balancing your production, and prioritizing the more important chains. Prioritization falls by the wayside in settlers online, as there is no race against a specific opponent as there is in the single player titles. However, it is still there. Do you spend your hard earned granite on a damascene weaponsmith, or do you upgrade one of your bakeries, and the chains that feed it to level 5? Which is more important? Which should be more important?

I am currently level 48 in settlers online. I have produced and lost more than a thousand elite soldiers. I do not have a titanium smelter, or a damascene weaponsmith on my island. How can this be, you ask? Simple. I, like many other players, have relied on adventure loot to supply me with weapons. As a matter of fact, I have written several extensive production guides for one of the many wikis, in which I actively advised people to not build damascene weaponsmiths, and to not upgrade steel weaponsmiths just because of the sheer volume of weapons loot that falls in your lap late game. Effectively, the last meaningful production chain in the game was the gold or science production chain, fully unlocked at levels 26 and 40, respectively. This was broken. As nearly any historian will tell you, one of the most effective ways to slow a hostile advance into your territory is the "scorched earth" policy. Most effectively used by the Soviet Union during World War II, this involves destroying *ALL* infrastructure and supplies to make it harder for an advancing enemy to resupply themselves. Apparently, adventure islands didn't get that memo.

Where is this going, you ask? Simple. Settlers is a game of production and balance. This means that having advanced weapons, such as cannons and damascene swords drop as loot, was by definition, a broken mechanic. It invalidated the associated production chains. There was simply no point in building the buildings which created those weapons, as each damascene sword cost 172 coal, and it was far easier to run a VtV or a BK and grab 300 from loot. Same with cannons, crossbows, steel swords, and to an extent, iron swords. Those chains didn't need to exist, and in most cases only existed because of the associated quests. The PvP update changed that. Finally, there is a purpose to having high end production chains, as they are necessary to have high end weapons.

I believe that this update was a very valuable one, as it simultaneously created a new "production chain" (attack weapons), as well as reviving several previously useless production chains. Yes, this means more work for you, the player. But, if you didn't want to spend time and energy on this game, creating the perfect island, then why are you playing?



TL;DR: Start the flame war.

Here's my loot from my latest Black Knights adventure....

900 granite
750 copper ore
600 iron ore
750 coal
600 hardwood logs
600 horses
150 settlers
600 brew
165 bread
1x 600 meat refill
1x 600 iron refill

Yes, Black Knights is pretty easy once you have cannons but this isn't exactly "epic" loot. I think they need to adjust the numbers up for players to bother running the adventures.

I really don't mind making my own weapons but it still takes resources to produce them.

There are a few key things you are missing here I think.
1. How does this change effect the lower lvl player that is just starting to do adventures?
How many of them are willing to grind it out do you think when losing 200 soldiers for whatever reason now means no more adventuring for a week.
2. How many lvl 48-50's who have spent god knows how many hours days years getting their islands setup perfectly for whatever their needs/goals are willing to demolish and rebuild? You say "if you don't want to spend the time and energy on this game to create the PERFECT island..." What about the perfect island i have now? I paid my dews i did what it took, i put in the time the energy the sleepless nights to setup my island to be able to run 10 back to back adventures if i chose to do so and now i have to make weapons for a week because i ran an FT?

Dont get me wrong. I know it doesn't sound like it but i do support the change. it's a game and things should change. People that want to adjust and keep going will and those that dont will quit. No big deal either way but when talking about a change people should consider how it effects the next person in the game as well because without a playerbace playing a game by yourself is no fun.

On a last note.everything on my island is lvl 5-6. my chains are setup to best fit me and I rather lose 5k more recruits than switch over to losing m/s/e and so on. Reason 1. I dont have any space to add new chains.
Reason 2. Time is a resource to me and BS from mining stage to putting the weapon in a Recruits hand is much faster still than replacing 500 elits.
Reason 3. I'm not about to take down buildings to adjust to a different chain that i spent so much time, energy and resources getting to lvl 5/6.
I'm a rebel, I'm dumb, I refuse to change, etc etc etc...I am me

Before anyone jumps on my numbers, yes some are exaggerations, i do not claim that any of the numbers/time provided in my reply is accurate or calculated.

Bushybraw-I think you make a good point about the player base. And here is where I would like to chime in about the settlers economy. I remember watermills costing 1200c. Now, I see them going for nearly 10k. This inflation is caused by the lack of gold sinks, i.e. level 4 upgrades for many buildings. I.e. new players.

Using one of the most, if not the hands-down most successful free MMO games in existence, runescape, as an example, I believe this is caused by the relative ease of leveling up to max. I am slow. I've spoken to many people that have hit level 50, max level, in less than a year. This creates a very top-heavy economy, in which high(-er) end resources, like HWP, marble, and coins, which are the highest tier resources available without adventures, are effectively worthless. This is a problem. This is not an easy problem to fix, and the cooperative nature of the settlers community makes it even harder to address. Without changing the cooperative nature, and therefore alienating players like me, I think the next best choice for stabilization of the game is to make it much harder to hit max level. This means harder adventures, bigger losses, and overall more scarcity. Many people that are used to just getting swamped in freebies will complain. Many people will burn out and quit. many will just rage quit. Ultimately, this will extend the longevity of the game.

As to your other points, I fully agree. I would also rather lose 5k R on a single FT than lose, say, 700M and save 2k R. That is a personal decision, and based on your island, you should be able to choose which one you prefer. I simply don't see how this is affected by the update. If anything, your willingness to lose R should make you relatively immune to the loss in weapon loot.

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Originally Posted by Kryptos901

I believe that this update was a very valuable one, as it simultaneously created a new "production chain" (attack weapons), as well as reviving several previously useless production chains. Yes, this means more work for you, the player. But, if you didn't want to spend time and energy on this game, creating the perfect island, then why are you playing?

TL;DR: Start the flame war.

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First of all, I agree with most of what you say. My main issues:

1) The new armory is manually driven with caps of 25 weapons per batch. Some of the new units use 6 weapons, so to make 100 (max marshall unit capacity), I would need to make 600 weapons, manually clicking to make 25 weapons 24 times and then making 4 batches of 25 attack units. Note that your perfectly balanced production chains of the "old" weapons ran as long as you had resources to produce another weapon. This is not a balanced production chain - It's an ignore my island until I have enough iron bars, then painfully go into the armory and manually make weapons.
2) This has become an iron-based series. I understand driving us to higher metals than copper, but coupled with the lack of weapons drops it's a matter of time before iron bars are the most inflated item in the game. You need them to build iron swords, the new bows/crossbows and the new sabers/lances. You also need iron bars to make steel to build the steel swords and the new pikes/maces, that makes 8 weapons based on an iron chain, plus I don't even know the coal requirements.
3) The free movement is nice, but honestly is will be much more in need when they give us expansion islands (please now!) so we have the space to build up the extra iron/steel and supporting coal production.
4) Search and build times for iron/coal mines. I have logged in every day for about 2 1/2 years, but there are many days I only am on for a few minutes. I can send explorers out but even the upgraded jolly geo won't be back before I've moved on to something else, so a lot of iron and coal will sit idle until I can build up iron mines. I know others have remarked on this, but it's even more true now that I've seen the live version (I did not do much on test).
5) Buffs for the new armory don't increase yield from resources, they shorten the production time. All your normal smiths gain increased yield from buffing.

These are just a first impression, I made another post with the results of my first expedition. It will not be a profitable one, even though I was very lucky/efficient on unit losses. As much as I want the fresh content, I will probably become a weapon-seller and go try BK and Outlaws and other old advents that might now have favorable loot with only recruit (copper-based) losses.

EDIT: Also forgot iron bars are used to make wheels in the cannon chain...

First, from what I've read on the forums, it seems they're raising the 25 cap to 5k. Which is *AWESOME*, BB, by the way, PLEASE DO THAT. I'm tired of getting carpal tunnel every time I run an epic adventure.

As for making it a much more iron based game, I agree. Iron will become more important. Considering the current iron mines and their production times, they are similar to copper mines-2.4 days for a level one mine to run out, a day and change for a level two, etc. However, there are 16 such deposits. Based on the huge amount of deposits, it seems BB has always wanted us to switch to iron and steel losses as soon as we were able, we simply didn't see the point due to the numbers. The increased search time and building time simply means we spend more time logged in to settlers versus whatever other games we happen to be playing, which from a marketing standpoint is ideal. You will see similar mechanics in most time-based online games. As a matter of fact, this is taken to its illogical extreme in games like farmville where you are punished for *NOT* being constantly vigilant with your crops rotting and stuff. That is basic Pavlovian conditioning, and will exist as long as we are human. Your point 3 will be fixed after the 2 weeks of free movement. As for expansion islands, I have no fully formed opinion. Points 4 and 5 can be explained with the obvious game preference for iron, as well as to keep you playing more than a few minutes per day, as described above.

If I were to produce everything that I need, what would be the point of having trade?

What would be the point of having a friends list?

For what reason would I communicate with other players?

At what point would players just be playing with themselves?

I produce everything I need and I play with others and even trade.
Let's play the game, folks :-)

Krypto your "16 iron deposit on your island" argument just doesn't make any sense. Just to find those deposits (1hr each for regular geo) will take about 4hrs (most of my freebie guildies have 3-4 geos). Than you have to build the mines and upgrade them and buff them. That;s 8 hrs of work for you a day. And if you have 4 iron smelts lev 5 you are going to need ALL those iron depos up and running to feed it. Not to mention those depos hold 500 ore and will be dry in a matter of less than a day when upgraded.

The devs push of the game into iron was well criticized on test with solid data that can't be just ignored. The game design DOESN'T SUPPORT the current push into iron production. This was one of the major reason why "new combat balance" was let go. And now we have pvp which requires tons of iron, new army and new generals and gives... basically crap as a reward.

I agree with you all online games have their own mechanics to keep people online playing them. But you can't just push people into doing so many things in game and reward them with ... well lets call it as it is.. crap. Did you read how many people already asked BB for refund on the marshals? Find me ONE person who agrees that the pvp rewards are fine and is happy about it. Most of the opinions about pvp hoovers between "way to expensive" and "pure scam to get more gems".

The game is in deep trouble, the sentiment about it is dropping like an anchor into the bottom of an ocean. The current pvp mechanics created a huge demand for iron that will not be ever filled up because there is simply NOT ENOUGH iron to fuel the demand. Even if people stop doing pvp (which I believe is inevitable if the laughable rewards don't improve), there still will be shortage of iron simply because now everyone is forced to make iron/steel weapons for iether regular or pvp adventures.

The game design doesn't support such huge push into iron. Period. How to fix it? Read the test forums about new balance posts. Plenty of choices were given there.

Plumz I don't see how pvp could be a scam to get gems.. they didn't even put anything to spend gems on in the shop. They didnt even create a real pvp shop anyways.

You also fail to understand basic mechanics of the game. The game supports the push into Iron just fine, and it is able to support much more iron with the loot changes than it was before. Sure if you are endlessly finding iron mines and just building them to lvl 2 you might have a shortage. For me I am producing more than I ever did and having to rebuild fewer mines everyday. Things will adapt people will start using x3 buffs on iron buildings supply will increase.
Additionally regular adventures can still be handled just fine by bronze if you are concerned.

Around sentiment I see just as many people active this week as last week (and that is with the bad lag) in fact I see a few more because old hands have come back to test out the new system. That is not to say that PVP has been executed well - it hasn't, but change with the times adapt go try and have fun.

The game design does support the push into Iron. Period.

Don't know about others but my definition of fun is not searching for 16 iron depos, building, upgrading and buffing them everyday just to keep my economy balanced. Yes, lots of people are testing the new feature (pvp) and judging by number of posts on forums and sentiment in game it seems nobody likes the cost/reward ratio. But it is no surprise here, testers told BB in first week of pvp testing the rewards for doing it are just way too low. Well, deaf ears.

I can't speak for others. I didn't build the armory, didn't buy any marshals and not even planning on doing pvp unless the rewards are improved. Having great time on TO though watching my coins growing while posting trades straight from fantasy on coal and iron :)

Think I stopped paying attention at: lvl 48, lost thousands of elites, and that gold chains are not useful....

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Originally Posted by Moonlime

I produce everything I need and I play with others and even trade.
Let's play the game, folks :-)

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Brava, Moonlime.

Re-balance the PvP element to a sensible level, including cobber ore for the attack units. Or alternatively do away with the PvP weapon smith and unit and keep everything unified, simple, known....

The PvP update was much needed, the other changes like "hey its my bonus week let me suck your coal dry as I produce extra bars", well, was not.

It takes foresight, and actually engaging with the community to make any of this happen.

The OP made a remarkable about Runescape in his post. Classical example, I played for 7 years, yes 7. They ignored their player base, they tinkered with the combat system to try and compete with games like WoW. In the end the lost out big time.

Developers, I'll give you a cold hard truth. If player numbers aren't decreasing, be satisfied. There are that many games out on the market, players choose your game from a reason. It's not because you were the best, nor the most popular. It's because they liked your GAME MECHANICS.

I CAN NOT SAY THIS ENOUGH TO GAME DEVELOPERS.

If you game is broken, don't fix it. If your game numbers/profits are decreasing, have a look at forums and look at small things players are asking for you to implement. Take player polls like you do for guild market. Want PvP? What will the costs be? Here are the options, you decide! Want a new loot system so fix the endless loot sharing monstrosity this game has become, here our our potential sink holes for resources, do you players agree? Cast your vote! Let's make a forum topic for feedback!


This is why companies like BlueByte and Jagex will fall into oblivion. Take a leaf out of Runescapes (pre-EOC) book, and go from there.


All the best.

in any game if a quest didnt offer enough reward i skip it, i play rpg alot...just what fool would go off and risk his life or worse for a gold...I dont like the changes, I am new to game, I am glad you do. If any wish to converse with me send me a mail, I am in a different game.

Well, since this got necro'ed back, I might as well add a few thoughts I was avoiding earlier. I think the first page of this post led to some interesting discussions, unlike the second page. To exemplify: Chants.

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Think I stopped paying attention at: lvl 48, lost thousands of elites, and that gold chains are not useful....

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Point one: correct. I am level 48. Point two: correct. I have lost over a thousand elites to bad blocks, quest related losses, etc. Point three: Exact opposite of what I said. Gold chains were the last *useful* production chains before this update. I've even written a guide on how extremely useful gold chains can be. Seems someone followed my TL;DR advice.

Anyway. I think ThisNameIsTaken made some interesting points I would like to address. First, If copper ore is added to PvP, then this will make the recruit loss heavy adventures, such as ALL OF THEM, much harder to run. Currently, I am consuming 14k and change copper ore per day for my industry. I would prefer to not have that increase, as it is a fairly brutal number for someone who does not buy gems.

I do agree with his following argument: Runescape, post EOC, is not something I play more than a few times a year. Frankly, it sucks now. It is not the same game that I started playing back in 2001. However, their number of people online on a daily basis is pretty much the same. This is why I think that BB's PvP update was helpful. Some people won't like it, some people will, and ultimately it will balance out. I have not yet attempted a single expedition on advice from my guild. However, I know people who have an expedition island where attacks constantly fail, and they have held it since literally the day this update came out. Likely, because of the high costs associated with PvP.

I cannot agree that companies like Jagex and BB will ever fall into oblivion, however. The first company was a trailblazer in the MMO genre, and will always be remembered as such in the history books. BB had the first city building game I have ever seen that did not feature forced PvP like evony, and I salute them for that; even though I think the parent company, Ubisoft, has screwed more of their games coming out of the gate than the average screwdriver. Look at the latest AC title if you need any proof.

Ultimately though, TNIT is correct. If your game is broken, but the player numbers are the same, don't bother fixing it. That's a waste of time and money for all but the most cutting-edge companies that wish to stay in the forefront. If you do wish to lead the pack, however, you should be not only fixing things that people complain about in the forums, but also coming up with new and exciting things for people to do. Even if some don't like the idea of suddenly having to spend resources to try out a new mechanic, like PvP, instead of just sitting back and collecting the monthly freebie, there will always be plenty more new people who love the idea and are willing to adapt. A successful company exists to help the latter, not the former.

In terms of fixing things that people are complaining about on the forums: PLEASE hurry up and release the multiple stacks at a time thing. The hardest part of running a bi-weekly SE is not the adventure, but the (5000+760+333)*3=732 (rounded up) consecutive repetitive mouse clicks it takes to train the troops for each one.

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Originally Posted by Kryptos901

[...] The hardest part of running a bi-weekly SE is not the adventure [...]

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What? lol I run an average of one SE/day! :P

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Originally Posted by Kryptos901

This is why I, personally, fully support Ubi and BB in the new 11/25 patch, and why I believe it is a good thing [...] This means that having advanced weapons, such as cannons and damascene swords drop as loot, was by definition, a broken mechanic [...]

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I will agree with you on the point of removing weapons (especially advanced and epic ones) from most loot. HOWEVER, my biggest gripe about this update was not the weapons being dropped, it was the nerfing of loot in the 'Invasion of the Nords' adventure AND keeping the now worthless adventure at 1495 gems. Those of us who had purchased and had these adventures in our star menu came to find out the hard way the BB straight 'took that' as the kids would say these days. Not very honorable or honest imo.

Never did and never will do that Expedition stuff - ready to endorse Ali-Baba however...

I realize this is an older post, but still needed addressing! :D

BB wants players to pay real money to play their game as any business does. It's how they stay a float. Even though this is a free game. Many players say the weapon removal is a good thing. Many like myself miss it.

I've mentioned this before about BB doing a slight compromise. Bringing some weapon drops back into the loot for those players that pay for the Premium Account.

I don't play PvP, so the iron supply pressure I have yet to feel. The new updates coming might change that along with my supply of weapons getting lower from what I had saved before the removal creeps down into single digits.

I thought more about it and thought of something that could possible help both sides of the players who want weapons back and those that would rather have better loot of something else instead.

I'm sure BB can set it up where the % drop of loot in each slot stays the same. And do we really need 3 or 4 lots that give the same resource? Can't you just combined them instead?

My suggestion is give us a lot where we can pick 1 item from a list:

A. A mid-to-high yield of a refill for the high end stuff coming out.
B. A drop of a weapon that are between 500-1000 units, you can change what weapons one can pick depending of the adventure to open the area for players to run them if they want a chance to grab them.
C. A building like a mine that can remove ore faster, or is already at level 6, a water fountain, residential house, or some other decoration.
D. A choice of a buff that works to improve the use of a resource on those high end production lines, maybe a buff we can only place ourselves or if another player can place it, even if they don't have PA we still get the buff bonus because we have PA.


This gets players to spend real money to have a chance at picking what they want. A win-win for all I think.
Players that want higher yield refills, or would rather have a weapon, or a building, or a buff.
BB gets players to part with their cash for the PA account. Any other game a PA account gives you that little added advantage over the free players, this could be one of the perks.

It's not the weapon's in loot. It is the fact that a fresh 48 player who doesn't have tons of resources or coin neither top notch upgraded production chains will need to run BK adventure for a year (or longer) to get all the salt needed to make himself standing army of 400 Canons. On a basis of 1 BK a day run.

Can't argue with numbers. And the numbers look even worse once you get to lev 32. Game became very hard for lowbies after the loot "adjustment". Hard and slow. Now, all the 50ies are going to get even further away from all under lev 50 with new xpac coming up. The gap will be quite large and a lot of guilds will get some serious hits cause of that. There are social ramifications of creating large gaps between players and we will see soon how that will affect the game...

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Originally Posted by Pinkleet

[...] Can't argue with numbers. And the numbers look even worse once you get to lev 32. Game became very hard for lowbies after the loot "adjustment". Hard and slow. Now, all the 50ies are going to get even further away from all under lev 50 with new xpac coming up. The gap will be quite large and a lot of guilds will get some serious hits cause of that. There are social ramifications of creating large gaps between players and we will see soon how that will affect the game...

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Interesting observation, Pinkleet. I have noticed just by playing and chatting, a lot of players that seem to 'retire'/disappear/quit or just lose attention between the levels of 28ish to the low forties. I am sure that BB has fully detailed lists of such activity and are working overtime to address the situation.

simple fix.....build the weapons chains as intended, and produce weapons. BB put in quests for all the chains in the game for some reason, build them and RUN them. If all you're planning is to make pixel's off other player then specialize in a certain item and trade for what you need.

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Originally Posted by Troll-Phu

simple fix.....build the weapons chains as intended, and produce weapons. BB put in quests for all the chains in the game for some reason, build them and RUN them. If all you're planning is to make pixel's off other player then specialize in a certain item and trade for what you need.

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Bingo. But, then again, we are still here, so we are still playing! :D (And spending time on the forum as we await the unleashing of the XXL) TO is not really my game, so I try to produce most of my own stuff, but I do end up buying different things from time-to-time; the way it goes.