Salt an Titanium - simple math.

I am not going to post how much resources is needed to make them. I am going the other way. How much I can make from loot drops. Judge the numbers by yourself.

I have about 1 in 4 chances of getting either 250 salt or 150 titanium ore from Black Knights adventure. The larger drops are on a much slimmer chance to get so I will not count it. Realistically from past experience I can expect in 10 BK runs to get 2-3 times salt/titanium drop. So what I can do with 250 salt or 150 titanium? Well lets see:

Titanium:

150 ore will go into smelter and give me 75 bars which will take about 4hrs to make. Buffed 2x - 150 bars.

150 bars goes into DS maker giving me 32.5 DS swords also within 4hrs. Buffed 2x - 65 DS swords

This is at level 5. At level 1 the numbers are the same except each process will take about 16-18 hrs

Assuming I am a lev 42+ player from this BK loot I can make 65 DS and it will take me realistically 2 days (2 step process). I can train 6.5 ES from 1 BK loot drop that will take between 4-8 adventures to get.



Salt:

250 salt goes into gunpowder hut giving me 41.5 gunpowder in 2hrs and few minutes. Buffed 2x - 83 gunpowder

85 (round it up) gunpowder goes into canon forge giving me 15 canons (round up) in about 80ish minutes. Buffed 2x -30 canons. (round up)

At level 1 both processes takes 4x longer.

So to sum it up.
Buffed 2x from regular BK drops I can expect to train about 6.5 ES or 3 canoneers.

Realistically you can expect to train 1 ES per 1 BK run and 1 Canoneer per 2 BK runs (round up).This is because your chance of getting salt/titanium is 25% per drop.

This is from average loot chance of 1-4 runs. You get a pretty good idea how long will it take for average player to train 200 ES (42+) and 200 K (48+). There is nothing in here about how expensive is to built the weapon chain or how much other resources are needed to make ES and canons (exo wood, coal). Further more, canon production also shares titanium which puts additional pressure on that resource.

As Ornias said in one of his posts - new players are doing very well looking for a new game to play. Can you blame them?

I knew it was bad, just not that bad.

thanks for doing the math. i'm now seriously depressed.
when they said they were going to adjust things to offset nerfing the weapons loot, they obviously overlooked the little details!

Not buffing up the salt/titanium loot while adjusting it for removing weapons was a huge mistake. This is a reason why salt and titanium cost more than granite now and why the number of available epic weapons WILL KEEP DWINDLING. There is not enough loot to make them toward the demand. There is no way in the game to restock on it either, except for adventure loot drops (not enough to feed demand) and treasure searches that are just laughable (10 salt from 48 hrs search???)

i totally agree. this needs to be seriously rethought

It's quite easy to calculate average drop per BK. It's 47.5 (=0.13*250+0.3*500) titanium and salt per adventure. That equals 23 damaswords and 5 cannons with double buffs, so one can train 2 elites and 0.5 cannon per BK. Very low numbers I agree.

Here is the tabulated information, taking into account double and triple buffs:

1 cannon = 6 gunpowder + 1 carriage
at 2x buff: 1 cannon = 3 gunpowder + 0.5 carriage
at 3x buff: 1 cannon = 2 gunpowder + 0.33 carriage

1 gunpowder = 6 saltpeter
at 2x buff: 1 gunpowder = 3 saltpeter
at 3x buff: 1 gunpowder = 2 saltpeter

1 carriage = 4 wheels + 6 explanks
at 2x buff: 1 carriage = 2 wheels + 3 explanks
at 3x buff: 1 carriage = 1.33 wheels + 2 explanks

1 wheel = 3 exlogs + 6 ironbar
at 2x buff: 1 wheel = 1.5 exlogs + 3 ironbar
at 3x buff: 1 wheel = 1 exlog + 2 ironbar

so, using multiple stages of buffs, the requirements for making cannons are:
2x buffs: 1 cannon = 9 saltpeter + 1 wheel + 1.5 explank = 9 saltpeter + 1.5 exlogs + 3 ironbar + 1.5 explanks
3x buffs: 1 cannon = 4 saltpeter + 0.44 wheels + 0.66 explanks = 4 saltpeter + 0.44 exlogs + 0.88 ironbar + 0.66 explanks

Thank you Magenta for the quick sheet. According to this we can expect to make around 30 canons per 250 salt drop (BK) buffed 2x and 60 canons buffed 3x. (round up numbers).

From 1 salt drop BK adventure I can train either 3 or 6 canoneers depends on what type of buffs I am using). Granted salt has 25% average chance of dropping in BK that technically means I have to run 4 BK minimum to train 3 or 6 canoneers.

400 BK runs to get 300.(2x buffed). Technically. In my experience I don't get the salt 1 in 4 runs, usually i get 2 salt drops in 10-12 runs. So I can realistically expect to have to run BK adventure around 400-500 times to get a standing army of 300 canoneers (using 2x buff). or 200-300 times with 3x buff.

That is 1-1.5 years of game play doing one BK a day. Do you still think this is a reasonable time frame for new players to get their army so they can do epic adventures efficiently? I let the players judge that...

And the argument saying players can buy weapons/resources through trade office is not going to work well. Your loot adjustment caused prices of canons and DS swords to go in thousands and salt and titanium are almost as expensive as granite already. New players with their economies just starting, without upgrades and stock piles of resources simply can't afford it.

There is another point to this. Scarcity of titanium and salt and dwindling stock piles of those will only agitate this even further. The devs created a choke point on those 2 resources and we are already starting to experience the results. It is only going to get worse not better because of small amount of those 2 dropping in loot and huge demand created by removing weapons from loot.

You going to have to take some action devs. Longer you wait, worse it gets. The players CAN'T fix this for you. Your action is required.

I will just say that expert weapon chains should only be ran if x4 buffed.......

I agree, but paying 3k for rainbow snow is not really an option for a lowbie :) And you need quite few books to train Lucky in artifact search:)

Salt and titanium ore are equal price with granite. Canons are going between 19-25k coins for 1k (to train 100 canoneers). God forbid you will lose some on a failed block... you are screwed. I just talked with 5 my guildies lev 27-32. They look at TO prices as a sci-fi pages. For them those prices are like from the moon or mars...

Old players are bored (nothing new to do) and disappointed and new players are finding this game incredibly hard to progress in levels. Anyone with the right brain realizes it will take them not months but years to reach lev 50 and create a stable economy. Sorry, BB. Your game is heading in a sad direction. I am afraid not even events will be enough to stop people from leaving.

If pvp was an attempt to give people something to do and create a sink hole to drop resources - it definitely failed. 72 people in my guild only few even tried pvp and now only 2 actually do it.. once a week or so. Your assumption that people will do pvp for the crappy rewards failed. You created economically influenced game. Are you surprised than nobody wants to waste hard earned resources for nothing?

Anyway, I can sum it up fast. More carrot, less stick. Your created balance is way off and people are leaving. Start fixing the reasons fast. How hard is to improve pvp rewards? Add something that can only be obtained through pvp and useful? How hard is to increase the drops in adventures for resources that are needed like titanium or salt? You know that people are leaving, logging less and loosing interest in this game. And I am sure you r gem sales are not as good as you would like them to be (no need of a crystal ball for that).

The fun thing is... it is nothing new. Testers warned you about the consequences of your changes... And now this is life.

I completely agree plumz. they were told this from the beginning. they claimed they were going to adjust everything to offset the nerfing of the weapons, and so all they did was boost the weapon making buildings for a couple weeks, which made some of us have to shut them down because it skewed up our other resources so bad we couldn't keep up (having to run ALL iron mines level 4 x3 buffed too expensive and ran out too fast to be able to keep up with)...they didn't think this through in the long run and the amounts that are dropped and the percentages that are dropped need to be reconfigured.
you know their gem sales aren't going well, they've had more gem sales since the beginning of this year then they did all last year, i think. ridiculous!
I hope they come to their senses soon, cuz this is getting tough trying tohelp out my lower level guildies, or my higher levels who screw up a block or something and need resources that are so expensive!

think this needs to be kept fresh. BB needs to see this!

Yep. Kanons are reaching 30-35k atm for 1000 (that's 100 troops trained). And salt is already trading higher than granite.

seriously , x2 buffs ?

lol, right? you are 100% losing gc value running any expert building with x2 buff- better off selling/trading raw mats in TO for the end product 100% of the time
If you cannot afford x4 buffs to put on cannon chain you probably should not have a cannon chain and at lvl5 only, nothing less

even x3 buffs on cannon chains are pretty pointless nowadays (on Zeus anyways)

Absolutely agree with Snacknado, if you don't have 4x buffs forget producing these weapons and trade for them instead. In theory you should only lose them if you make a mistake in an attack. Yes the drops are limited but with 4x buffs its very easy to cover your losses.

While I agree you should x4 buff with those expensive building such as canon or DS, You forget ONE main thing this topic try to prove. The game is going to direction that IMPOSSIBLE for new players ( aka 20,30,40 level players). We ( old players) can maintenance those building with x4 buff all day long and yes everyone know that you should x4 buff those building to get the most of out it BUT please tell me how can new players have enough x4 buffs . It already hard enough to just build the chain building itself which require huge amount of granite, titan,... Sorry but I don't think people are willing to spend money (aka buy gem) for a game that it require them like a year or insane among of gem to be able do some epic adventures / level up to 45+ ,.... ( basically to somewhat enjoy end game)

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Originally Posted by Yphanh2002

While I agree you should x4 buff with those expensive building such as canon or DS, You forget ONE main thing this topic try to prove. The game is going to direction that IMPOSSIBLE for new players ( aka 20,30,40 level players). We ( old players) can maintenance those building with x4 buff all day long and yes everyone know that you should x4 buff those building to get the most of out it BUT please tell me how can new players have enough x4 buffs . It already hard enough to just build the chain building itself which require huge amount of granite, titan,... Sorry but I don't think people are willing to spend money (aka buy gem) for a game that it require them like a year or insane among of gem to be able do some epic adventures / level up to 45+ ,.... ( basically to somewhat enjoy end game)

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If guilds who allows new players to join their guild properly trained those players and taught them how to trade successfully and how to optimize their island production (profit margins) by telling them what cheap buildings yield great profit- no new player should have a problem. Tibeius has been playing for only 2-3months and he took my advice and he has become very successful. He is almost done with his cannon chain(lvl 5) and i am sure he will get the most out of production. But not every player wants to listen or play like that- some like to have every building and run completely self-sufficient islands (which most of the time you lose gc(value) doing) but too each their own. If all guilds offered help/tips about optimizing your profit margins through adv running, building production and trade, no new player should really be struggling like many are claiming, if the tips/help is provided and they actually want to learn then there really wouldn't be any problems.

if anyone would like any help or tips you can mail/whisper me on Zeus or send me a message/mail through forum

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too each their own. If all guilds offered help/tips about optimizing your profit margins through adv running, building production and trade, no new player should really be struggling like many are claiming

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I almost want to say you are nailing the exact opposite from one sentence to another. To each their own is the only way you can make your "optimized profit margins", since if everyone would be doing the same, there would be a whole new problem, which isn't countered by adjusting, since everyone then would (assuming they keep up with the changes and don't fall into the to each their ownattitude).

But you guys went astray here anyway, let's just assume you do have your L5 chain and x4 buff it, according to the simple math, that is still only
"Buffed 4x from regular BK drops I can expect to train about 13 ES or 6 canoneers." < Going by the numbers where you do hit salt/*** instead of ewl/granny.

Most of you know how bad a block can get (and we are only taking blocking into the consideration, since if you would just raze every camp like BB thinks they intended it to be), you virtually would never ever lose any of the good troops. Obviously exclude BB fail lags that causes assignment mistakes like it was right after the "PvP" update, people are half asleep and blunder it up or don't follow any guides....or the ones that do use them as their main attack force (which then they deserve to face the hardships).

Balancing simply isn't one of BB's strong points at all (or whoever is resposible for the jack they push out on a bad shedule because money), and they just keep slowing down any progress a new player can experience. We are already big and got our stuff accomplished, from our point of view it may be moot, but to a new player with a 200 Gen, no cash dropped and isn't completely egomaniacal playing, this game went from casual to ultra casual...or rather instead of climbing a mountain, they now got to push a boulder up with them, to never really be able to reach the peak to let it roll down the other side. And since this is a game with no greater goals toward "feeling better about accomplishing something", I'm not sure how many will actually reach that point ever.

clearly not everyone plays this game to "optimize profit margins" i would say that those players who do are the minority group in this game, but my point was that if a new player is willing to learn and wants to do that- it is fairly easy for them to progress in this game, even without buying gems.

probably easier to start now and progress than people who started 2-3.5 years ago

I have a suggestion for you Snacknado. Start a fresh island on another server, without gems. See how your life is going to improve when you get to lev 30+ WITHOUT weapons, expansive buffs and upgraded chains. I am getting tired of your attitude finding excuses for every legitimate complain about obstacles mounted by the game design for fresh players.

"Every player knows epic weapons should be only used with 4x buffs.."? How many players level 30-40 do you actually know who have access to artifact searches? Simply put you can't see pass your upgraded island economy, easy access to buffs and stockpiles of resources.

Start fresh and then post your comments.

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Originally Posted by Plumz

I have a suggestion for you Snacknado. Start a fresh island on another server, without gems. See how your life is going to improve when you get to lev 30+ WITHOUT weapons, expansive buffs and upgraded chains. I am getting tired of your attitude finding excuses for every legitimate complain about obstacles mounted by the game design for fresh players.

"Every player knows epic weapons should be only used with 4x buffs.."? How many players level 30-40 do you actually know who have access to artifact searches? Simply put you can't see pass your upgraded island economy, easy access to buffs and stockpiles of resources.

Start fresh and then post your comments.

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I did, i have a lvl 24 on Ares with 60k+gc, until i quit and gave all my stuff to my guildies, was around for halloween and christmas events and was able to buy everything in the shop. But that is not really a fair comparison because I know this game very well and it is easy to make profit if you know how to trade well. But i assumed that players with epic weapon chain knew that it is only worth running them with x4 buffs, and if you dont it is just simple math. "How many players lvl 30-40 do you actually know who have access to artifact searches?" How many players lvl30-40 do you know that actually make expert weapons... you cant even use cannons until your 48 and damas 42.....

I actually did not run any adventures nor have anything on my island besides storehouses, all i did was trade and was quite successful.

It is not so much excuses rather just tips- Dont run expert weapon chains unless lvl5 and with x4 buffs, or else you will lose money doing so. etc. ..........

yep that tip works very well for people who need expert weapons to do higher level adventures ..."don't run expert weapons till you gt lev5 and have 4x buffs.." Brilliant:)

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Originally Posted by Plumz

yep that tip works very well for people who need expert weapons to do higher level adventures ..."don't run expert weapons till you gt lev5 and have 4x buffs.." Brilliant:)

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Yeah, because you would be losing gc value if you did do this- would be cheaper to buy the weapons on TO by selling the raw materials used to make the weapons than processing them through a chain less than lvl5

not really Brilliance per-say but more so common sense through simple math....

You don't need to take my word for it though, 5 other people in this thread have said the same thing about expert weapon chains not worth running unless lvl5 and with x4 buffs or you can just plug the #s in a calc and you will see for yourself

If you do not care about losing gc value than continue to run your chains, everyone is different and to each their own. But it is kind of silly to complain in forums and then be ignorant when other players try and give you tips on how to optimize production to make it easier for you.

The cost to make lvl 5 expert buildings is astronomical.

yeah, need to factor that into the equation when calcing production cost : TO market value