COA: Anslem vs Vargus

This is a comparison of the 2 generals just in the most popular ali baba adventures, which are the ones that really matter.
Nusala is some kind of a stronger mma, means its good for the old adventures, not so much on babas so i didn't even sim it.

Long story short, i'm picking VARGUS, and its the one ill use on guides from now on, unless we can get the others in some way in the future.
here's why:

http://i.imgur.com/KL5MVpl.png


some other notes:
- vargus makes mounted bow piece of cake, that's where we get the most savings
- anslem can be used in more camps than vargus, which means more walking, thus making it slower to run an adventure, this is also an important point to me, vargus is better at alternating attacks
- i didnt sim FT properly yet because it wont matter to me for the picking, so i'll only sim vargus, on BLT it saves 103R (0.86h) and saves 1 mma sac

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evil_J

Long story short, i'm picking VARGUS, and its the one ill use on guides from now on

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The important part for many of you :D ^

Thanks for this EJ!

[QUOTE=Evil_J;276996]

Long story short, i'm picking VARGUS, and its the one ill use on guides from now on.

THANK YOU, EVIL_J! The one and only true rock star in the game!

The Master speaks.

Thanks for the analysis.

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Originally Posted by Evil_J

....- anslem can be used in more camps than vargus.....

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To me this is the important distinction between the two and why my personal choice will be Anslem. Not saying anybody's right or wrong, just saying I'm choosing him because I'll get more use out of him with the way I play the game, which includes making my own guides most of the time.

Thanks EvilJ

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Originally Posted by Perwyn

Thanks for the analysis.



To me this is the important distinction between the two and why my personal choice will be Anslem. Not saying anybody's right or wrong, just saying I'm choosing him because I'll get more use out of him with the way I play the game, which includes making my own guides most of the time.

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I think the chart at beginning is important. Anslem can be used more often and still doesnt save as much as Vargus. Except for 1st thief Vargus saves more time in all the others. Better to use on 1 camp and save 100 then use on 10 camps saving 5 each.

Thank you.

This goes a bit further than what I was working up on sims by expressing results in hours saved for barracks, which is a great measure, imo.

As always, your work is appreciated, as is your willingness to share.

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Originally Posted by Bigbobdog

I think the chart at beginning is important. Anslem can be used more often and still doesnt save as much as Vargus. Except for 1st thief Vargus saves more time in all the others. Better to use on 1 camp and save 100 then use on 10 camps saving 5 each.

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The time savings in the barracks is important. But with the combination of skunks and recruitment guides it's not the deciding factor for me. Being able to use Anslem instead of a major against a few camps and also being able to use him more than Vargus fits the way I play better than Vargus does. Also I'm not looking at only Ali adventures, but the Evil Queen chain as well. Not trying to be contrary just offering an alternate opinion. I don't think there's a right or wrong choice here, it depends on how a person is playing the game. If a person is using Evil_J's guides all the time, then they'd better pick Vargus since he is, otherwise, there are other factors to consider in the decision making process.

I'm more interested on who would do better in fairy tales and of course Black Knights. Odds are, they will be buy-able well before I hit lvl 54 (and I'm not even considering trying Ali Baba before I can produce some elite troops), and I've already cleared my new islands.

Sure and I would love to see the numbers saved on Evil Queen using both generals. I would definitely take that into my consideration. But given only the facts shown here it is a clear cut case. My point who cares if i can use anslem on any adv and save 50 if i can use another general 1 time and save 100. To me it is not can i alternate attacks but flat out who saves the most. In this case i can save more on those and alternate attacks. Best of both worlds. If you have tailor series sims done or evil queen showing the savings comparison of anslem vs vargus I and i expect others wouldi love to see them.

Rather than retype everything here's some info from test server comparing Anslem and Vargus. These are nasty camps in Red Riding Hood. I was just nuking these camps with small cats cause they really stink for losses. Now I can use an assassin followed with Anslem to clean them out. If somebody didn't want to use an assassin, RoA's or a 1st wave could likely be used instead with similar results.

http://forum.tsotesting.com/threads/...ll=1#post43787

The barracks times for either general works out about the same, 16 hours and change.

http://forum.tsotesting.com/threads/...ll=1#post43788

While this isn't the entire Evil Queen series, it illustrates the usefullness of Anslem in a context outside of Ali Baba adventures. So with Anlsem able to attack more camps than Vargus overall, he's my choice. At some point we'll be able to get them all anyway, but right now it's important for people to get the general which suits their playing style best. I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer, but there are different factors to consider.

What camps and what adventures can you use Anselm instead of a MG?

Haven't looked at Pied Piper or Snow White yet tomsb1176, but you can get the idea from these three.

Fisherman & his Wife

100 Ryl Mil – 150 Ryl Cav
MG: 14 MSw- 194Kn- 62Bsg [13 MSw-75Kn]
Anslem: 23 Msw-30Kn-97Bsg [23MSw-29Kn]

Hansel & Gretel

150 Fox – 100 WolfPackLeader
MG: 270 KN [75Kn]
Anslem: 130Kn – 20 Bsg [18Kn]

100 Ryl Cav – 75 Ryl LB – 75 Ryl Mil
MG: 50 Msw – 160Kn – 60 Bsg [50MSw – 50Kn]
Anslem: 43 Msw – 30Kn – 77 Bsg [42MSw – 20Kn]

150 Fox – 150 WolfPackLeader – 50 Deer
MG: 240Kn – 30 Bsg [80Kn]
Anslem: 150 Kn [64Kn]

200 Wolf – 150 Fox – 50 Deer
MG: 242Kn – 28 Bsg [81Kn]
Anslem: 140Kn – 10 Bsg [80Kn]

Red Riding Hood

150 Ryl Mil - 150 Ryl cav
MG: 45 MSw – 75 Kn 150 Bsg [45 MSw – 75 Kn]
Anslem: 55 MSw – 45 Kn – 50 Bsg [ 54 MSw – 45 Kn]

as i mentioned, anslem being used in more camps is a big turn down to me. i always bring extra troops to send attacks to multiple camps at once, specially on adventures with long walks like 3rd thief or wisdom...speaking of wisdom, i divided in top and bottom halfs to run it faster, but personally i plan to do a mix of vargus attacks plus a small cat on C4 (as i already do)

im not sure what you mean as using anslem in more camps if hours saved in barracks is not that important, thats the point actually....i know people that just care to reduce losses to lower costs, thus neglecting speed....vargus will save more troops and allow advs to be ran faster, on babas that is

tomsb - you need to be a little more specific than that to get someone to make some suggestions... lol

I am guessing, Evil's numbers are with blocks.. and so, Vargus would seem to speed up things for sending multiple attacks at one and save time..
However, I am guess what Perwyn and others are saying is, if you don't block, and only use Majors to kill all required camps, then having Anslem is like having a 3rd Major, and you'll be able to send more attacks in parallel (more, because you do not block, and attack more camps)...

So I think the key here is block vs no blocks makes Vargus vs Anslem seem to help make faster attacks..
Am I right Perwyn / Evil?

EDIT - Oh, and another variation of faster attacks with Vargus would be, where you use Major, MMA, Vets, all to send multiple attacks (like 10 attacks in parallel)... in such cases also Vargus would seem to be more useful because you need to use him on fewer camps, but save more troops (The speed comes from using multiple generals all at once, and not from using only 2 Majors).. Makes sense?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evil_J

as i mentioned, anslem being used in more camps is a big turn down to me. i always bring extra troops to send attacks to multiple camps at once

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I also bring extra troops and send multiple attacks at once. I already sub in a vet or MMA wherever possible to save time as I absolutely cannot stand using just majors and sitting and waiting, waiting, waiting for the long walks back and forth. So what I'm saying about Anslem is where there might be 3 or 4 attacks in a row that absolutely require a major, and if one of those attacks can be done with Anslem, then subbing him for a major saves a little time. So I'm in no way suggesting using Anslem exclusively in sequential attacks (like against 3 camps in a row for example) and slowing everything down. Just the opposite. I want to break up the times only a major can be used by subbing in Anslem whenever possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evil_J

....if hours saved in barracks is not that important, thats the point actually....i know people that just care to reduce losses to lower costs, thus neglecting speed....vargus will save more troops and allow advs to be ran faster, on babas that is

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Right, which is why I've repeatedly said, it depends on how a person is playing the game. Some people are power levelers and trimming as many losses and as much barracks time as possible is mega important to them. But not everyone plays that way. I run adventures when I'm in the mood and I'm not as worried about losses and barracks time as people that power level are. I'm also going to be running the Evil Queen chain and Anslem is useful in that context.

People are going to be looking for guidance when selecting one of these generals, so as much information as possible needs to be out there. With that being said, everybody that uses Evil_J guides exclusively should get Vargus as you suggest since your guides will be for him.

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative, there are alternatives to be expressed for the sake of getting as much information out there as possible. There's no right or wrong answer, it depends. People at lower levels probably have totally different perspectives than either one of us might have since I'm 62 and you're 70.

I'm also glad to see Alice joining the discussion as she has useful insights into these generals as well. In answer to your question Alice, I always use blocks where possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koshko

I'm more interested on who would do better in fairy tales and of course Black Knights. Odds are, they will be buy-able well before I hit lvl 54 (and I'm not even considering trying Ali Baba before I can produce some elite troops), and I've already cleared my new islands.

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3 random camps from VLT:

100 Boar - 30 Fox
Anslem: 65R - 1E - 84K [65R]
Vargus: 129R - 1E - 50K [129R]

120 Boar - 30 Fox
Anslem: 94R - 1E - 55K [94R]
Vargus: 90M - 1E - 89K [89M]

160 Fox
Anslem: 45R - 1E - 104K [45R]
Vargus: 100R - 1E - 79K [100R]

Here's the sim I'm using if you want to try a few FT camps yourself http://www.thesettlersonlinewiki.com/combat-sim/

question. if using anslem as an attacking gen, do we need more than 1 to achieve the advantage. in other words. can I buy anslem after the event and still have available where it is best.
reason, I like the sac play so nusala is more sacs against the first strikers.

You do not need more than one of either Anslem or Vargas to achieve the advantage. I would not get Nusala for any reason for your first gen. Even at lower levels, I am finding either Vargas or Anslem very effective dealing with traps, shadowsneakers, cav, other first strikers/attack weakest.

It's not clear now if you can get one gen and then buy another of all three from the merchant later, or if it's a max of one. I expect a max of one until someone tells me differently.

I want Nusala because I make extensive use of 5 MMAs and want to reduce my waiting time by 40% by basically adding 3 more. That's the most compelling benefit I have seen so far. Probably not very useful for anyone who runs multiple adventures per day and/or who wants to get them over quickly.

The generals will be available in the merchant later, but what that means is anyone's guess. Whether you can get more than one of each or whether they will be available again next Christmas nobody knows.

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People are going to be looking for guidance when selecting one of these generals, so as much information as possible needs to be out there. With that being said, everybody that uses Evil_J guides exclusively should get Vargus as you suggest since your guides will be for him.

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative, there are alternatives to be expressed for the sake of getting as much information out there as possible. There's no right or wrong answer, it depends. People at lower levels probably have totally different perspectives than either one of us might have since I'm 62 and you're 70.

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Your arguments are valid as a whole, but off for this topic. It was expressly stated by Evil why he picks Vargus based on the most common/frequently done adventures as far as Ali Babas go. Talking about finer details about every Gens use ought to be placed into another topic as not to derail this one (well, it has been already hehe).

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question. if using anslem as an attacking gen, do we need more than 1 to achieve the advantage. in other words. can I buy anslem after the event and still have available where it is best.
reason, I like the sac play so nusala is more sacs against the first strikers.

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Kind of a quick break down.
Anslem needs to be alive to be useful, thus he needs to be a kill waver, ergo staying alive.
Vargus also needs to be alive to be useful, also a kill waver, ergo staying alive.
Nualsa can be either a kill waver or a sac however you need it, does not have to stay alive to be useful.

As I mentioned on Test, I will be picking Nualsa based on the info that we can obtain the other generals through the merchant soemtime afterwards. If I end up with 1/1/1 that's great and the primary aim, I'm however gambling at getting 2/1/1 (aka we get to buy 1 of each and the calander one being a bonus), at which point I have more use for more Nukealsa than Vargus or Anslem, as the latter too are virtually staying alive anyhow most of the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ceruhe

Your arguments are valid as a whole, but off for this topic. It was expressly stated by Evil why he picks Vargus based on the most common/frequently done adventures as far as Ali Babas go. Talking about finer details about every Gens use ought to be placed into another topic as not to derail this one (well, it has been already hehe).

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Given that the title of the thread is Anslem vs Vargus, I'm not sure how preferring Anslem and giving examples of why derails the topic. Seems to me additional data on the topic enhances it rather than detracts from it. I wish more people would contribute valid data to this thread so there was one place to go for someone needing help making a decision, rather than random topics all over the forum.

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Originally Posted by Perwyn

Given that the title of the thread is Anslem vs Vargus, I'm not sure how preferring Anslem and giving examples of why derails the topic. Seems to me additional data on the topic enhances it rather than detracts from it. I wish more people would contribute valid data to this thread so there was one place to go for someone needing help making a decision, rather than random topics all over the forum.

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I see where you are both coming from.

However, evilj gave total numbers for an adventure.

It might be more worthwhile and comparable to analyse a complete adventure.

Given your numbers lets say anslem saves 100R on those 3 camps. But Vargus whips Anslem and saves a total of 500 more recruits among the other 20 camps you have to attack. I would say that vargus actually is better.

You cant just look at a few camps i think a better idea would be received from looking at a adventure as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Bigbobdog

It might be more worthwhile and comparable to analyse a complete adventure.

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You're right. I'm working on the entire VLT adventure. Halfway thru, it's looking like Anslem will be better for Tailors, Vargus for Ali's. Will post complete results when done, might be a while yet.

Edited to include link.

Here's a link to a Googledoc of the VLT attacks. Enjoy!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

So Anslem's skill "force accuracy" will make enemies less likely to hit?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Perwyn

You're right. I'm working on the entire VLT adventure. Halfway thru, it's looking like Anslem will be better for Tailors, Vargus for Ali's. Will post complete results when done, might be a while yet.

Edited to include link.

Here's a link to a Googledoc of the VLT attacks. Enjoy!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

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So I also took a look at VLT with the gens. here are the final results i found. Granted maybe i missed a better set up but i think this is pretty close.

Anslem saved 367R 129M 20S (396 minutes)
Vargus saved 117R 103M 14S (224 minutes)

So in the case of VLT yes Anslem wins with savings of 170 minutes total or about 3 hours. I dont feel that the savings are as big as percentage of total losses as the savings on the ali babas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evil_J

as i mentioned, anslem being used in more camps is a big turn down to me. i always bring extra troops to send attacks to multiple camps at once, specially on adventures with long walks like 3rd thief or wisdom...speaking of wisdom, i divided in top and bottom halfs to run it faster, but personally i plan to do a mix of vargus attacks plus a small cat on C4 (as i already do)

im not sure what you mean as using anslem in more camps if hours saved in barracks is not that important, thats the point actually....i know people that just care to reduce losses to lower costs, thus neglecting speed....vargus will save more troops and allow advs to be ran faster, on babas that is

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Agreed. Gotta factor in Speed if I wanna get that fancy ship before I am six feet under!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bigbobdog

So I also took a look at VLT with the gens. here are the final results i found. Granted maybe i missed a better set up but i think this is pretty close.

Anslem saved 367R 129M 20S (396 minutes)
Vargus saved 117R 103M 14S (224 minutes)

So in the case of VLT yes Anslem wins with savings of 170 minutes total or about 3 hours. I dont feel that the savings are as big as percentage of total losses as the savings on the ali babas.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Perwyn

You're right. I'm working on the entire VLT adventure. Halfway thru, it's looking like Anslem will be better for Tailors, Vargus for Ali's. Will post complete results when done, might be a while yet.

Edited to include link.

Here's a link to a Googledoc of the VLT attacks. Enjoy!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

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1st Thanks Perwyn for running the numbers for VLT..

2nd I suppose, comparing losses on old troops vs new troops... (even when comparing percentages seems logical), is probably not apple to apple comparison.

3rd In the end, I hope we get all 3 :) and it is likely that sooner or later we will... Only thing I and few others have been wondering is, will it be 3+1?
If / In the latter case which one do you want the extra?

Come to think of it, for lower levels, except for Nausala being really really useful, speeding with MMAs or Nausala, or Major, if you have it shouldn't be a problem.. Apparently Vargus and Anslem still have uses on lower levels too...
So for Higher levels, for use with Elite troops, call it a tie,
and go with choice of EvilJ simply because you follow him, I mean his guides :D
or go with Anslem, because you are not following his path, and know how you want to use Anslem...

If i could have an extra of any general it would be Nusula. I think it would give advantage of having 2 wave 1 sacs.

I am not sure there is any troop saving gain in having more than one vargus or anslem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kagehisa

So Anslem's skill "force accuracy" will make enemies less likely to hit?

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Yes, Anslem's skill causes enemy troops to always do minimum damage. So if damage is 30-60, they always do 30. In the case of foxes which are 10-40, they always do 10.

Thank you Alice for joining the discussion. If not for you pointing it out on test I would never have realized how powerful Anslem can be. So in other words.... this is all your fault!!! ROTFLMAO

But seriously, it's very easy for Anslem to get passed over cause the other two choices are more flashy. I'm satisfied to have pointed out his strengths. Like I said earlier, if you're doing mostly Ali's and/or you use Evil_J's guides, then get Vargus. Otherwise, at least take a real good look at Anslem before you decide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Perwyn

Thank you Alice for joining the discussion. If not for you pointing it out on test I would never have realized how powerful Anslem can be. So in other words.... this is all your fault!!! ROTFLMAO

But seriously, it's very easy for Anslem to get passed over cause the other two choices are more flashy. I'm satisfied to have pointed out his strengths. Like I said earlier, if you're doing mostly Ali's and/or you use Evil_J's guides, then get Vargus. Otherwise, at least take a real good look at Anslem before you decide.

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Based on your comment can you give a good guide that uses anslem on Ali's. Isnt the goal with guides to take the least amount of losses. To me it has nothing to do with whether or not you follow EvilJs guides.

The way i see it Vargus beats Anslem decisively on Ali's.

I believe that Anslem will beat Vargus on FT's but not by large margins.

Nusula wins on low levels.

To me these statements are based upon the idea that you want to take the least amount of losses or least amount of loss of unit values, i.e. rather lose 3 recruits and 1 soldier.

Its not that anslem is useless he just pales in comparison on Babas. Your insistence that it is just as good on lets say WC or third thief seems silly and i would love to see a guide that proves it is the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Perwyn

Like I said earlier, if you're doing mostly Ali's and/or you use Evil_J's guides, then get Vargus. Otherwise, at least take a real good look at Anslem before you decide.

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How is this insisting that Anslem is just as good in Ali's? I've pointed out his uses in the Evil Queen chain and VLT. I'm not disputing what Evil_J says about Vargus in Ali's. But I am saying people should look at Anslem for use in other areas because he is powerful.

Well you said useful in Evil Queen but yet no numbers. The numbers you gave as well as ones i gave show yes he is the best at VLT.

To add to the numbers here is Anslem vs Vargus on CLT.

I am willing to show my attack values for VLT or CLT if anyone needs. I would be willing to adjust numbers if you can show that there are more savings to have.

CLT
Anslem saves 151R 27M
Vargus saves 124R 7M

Just a quick additional information. Roaring bull will get much easier with Vargus.

The first block which is a risky one in timing gets very easy when using Vargus + 124 recruits + 1 soldier + 1 elite + 54 cannoneers. This one only needs 40 seconds to complete, which is 30 seconds less than the GM 128 + 1 elite + 141 cannoneer combination.

Just my 2cts.

So i just took a look at The fisherman and his wife. Seems Anslem saves 20K (66 minutes) and vargus wont really help anywhere. So Anslem by a nose on that one.

lol seems the discussion is alive, here are some facts that influenced my decision

- normal barracks is easy, saving time on the elite barracks is what matters to me
- on BLT vargus only saves 103R, thats 0.86h in barracks, will also save 1 mma sac
- didnt sim evil queen chain because imo it sucks, i did it once and have no interest in doing again
- vargus will speed up attacks more than anslem on babas
- obviously my sims consider blocks, if you dont block doesnt make sense to think about saving troops
- maybe the other gens are better for newer players, but level goes up, and we dont know how and when the gens will be available for purchase