[Official Poll] Would you want a Closed Beta wipe?

[Cenzton]

Thanks, kayeich, great to see someone coming up with valid points. I hope you don't mind if I refute some.

The pace of the game is pretty fast to level 12 (although there is a bit of an annoying lag between completing a task, leveling and getting a new quest), then you first start tasting the delay of resource management/wait to 16 though it's still pretty fast, then it takes about 1-2 days to get the resources to hit level 17, sometimes depending on luck (it helps if you get a lot of bows, while my brother has been pretty much getting money, so he's lagged behind), and then more and more delays as the game gets a bit grindy/waiting.

It's actually not too fun during this time besides trading fish buffs and can't even do any actual trading until I get enough resources for a branch office, and I think he needs one as well (in addition to actually hitting 17).

Yes, the game slows down like mad after the how to build section of the tutorial is done with, but you have to realize that much of this game is spent waiting around for resources to gather. It's not meant to be played by sitting and managing every second of the day, it's really more of the "Set it and forget it!" type. It's a lot slower paced than people are used to, but it looks like that's how the game will progress.

As I progress and get new stuff, I can destroy buildings and put new ones. My layout right now is complete crap (I actually have residence houses near my mayor house!), but if I wanted to, I could so easily destroy it and start over without a wipe. All it takes is maybe 5 minutes to hit the little bomb icon on every building.

In exchange, I'll have more storage space (assuming I didn't delete the storage warehouses anyhow until I depleted some supplies from them if I want to relocate them), I have more space to build with, and I presumably have resources available.

People saying there should be a wipe because their layout is awful....that's a little mind-numbing. Destroy your world and redo it! Or make a new account! Jeez!

There's some problems with this. Yes, you can delete your buildings and re-make them, but the amount of resources you get back when blowing up a building is so miniscule that blowing up buildings to re-make them isn't really a viable solution, especially when we start to consider advanced buildings which have a huge cost.

As for making a new account, yes, I suppose that's possible to do, but having 2 account seems a little... exploitative to me.

Ditto for the people saying that things might change and lower levels should get tested out again. Besides the fact that more people would be around to test this in an open beta (or jeez, that one person who didn't like his avatar)...again, how HARD is it to start a new email account and then making a new account with CEO? 2 minutes? 5 maybe? How long does it take to get to level 17 again, or level 50, or whatever level we might be at when closed beta ends? Days? Weeks? See the difference?

Lower levels are unlikely to change, actually. It's once you're past 16 or so, and into advanced buildings that may (and should) change. This, however, may affect how you need to do things at lower levels. And, sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what your secondary point is there.

If the cost of buildings changes, this notion of asking for a refund seems ridiculous. Again, how hard is it to tear down your existing layout, and starting over just with the knowledge that (a) you can trade for goods you might need in the process of rennovating, (b) the extra storage/layout space to work with? Testing is FASTER when you have more resources.

Once again, the returns of tearing down is virtually nilch.

And as for people not liking to see people at higher level...you realize people STILL join MMOs like WoW/Rift even though there's billions of people levels ahead of them? Why is that if people so hate seeing people ahead? Oh, that's right. Could it be "Community"? You have people you can play with, people that will have the money to have started out guilds, an economy that's not wildly fluctuating, people that can help give you advice on what to do or give you free stuff once you can trade to help you along.

There's a difference between jumping into an MMO like WoW or Rift and catching up to those at cap, and RTS's like this. The more apt comparison would be to that of Travian, or even something like Star Kingdoms both of which do a full wipe every x months to level the playing field again. Here, new folks that would join as open beta/live starts would not only be at a disadvantage of what to do, but at a disadvantage of being way behind in resources and such. And yes, there's a community of people who are willing to give pointers and guilds to join (though with 15 people only per guild that seems unlikely right now), but really, if you come in at what you think is the start and there's people miles ahead of you already, would you really be willing to run the race? Sure, down the line people joining would have the same issue, the difference is that those folks would KNOW that the game has been out for x amount of time. Those that would start in open beta/live would expect to start on a level playing field.

For the most part in this particular game, (and to turn it around on another poster), I haven't seen a GOOD reason FOR a wipe, and I think I've stated why I don't think they're valid reasons. When you don't wipe, you have an existing community, more people that can find bugs at high levels quickly, and frankly, you don't lose quite as many people.

You can disagree with my points, no reason to belittle them though. There's no reason why the community you speak of would just completely dissolve if there was a wipe, and finding bugs is what CB is for. I think the exodus from the game that you're imagining if there's a wipe is significantly smaller in reality; those that would leave because of a wipe probably wouldn't stick around for long anyways.

This game -is- slow with leveling. People that stick with it long enough to get to a high level by the time beta ends, they probably won't quit so easily once they reach whatever the level cap is like some people insinuate they'll do (Pffft!), they'll just start either playing more socially, with combat against friends, or redesigning their city layouts. Maybe they might open a new email account and start over.

Currently, we do not know what the level cap is, nor do we know what we'll be able to do specifically when we get there. We don't know how pvp will function, what other worlds we'll be able to explore, just what functions guilds will have. It's not very useful to speculate what people will in the future when we don't know what activities will be available.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people that get attached to their world, or that hate going through the monotony of slowly getting access to old stuff all over again. Those people may very well quit in response to a wipe, unless it's planned extremely soon, while people are still level 16-20 primarily.

It's a matter of, what do you lose if you wipe? A lot. What do you lose if you -don't- wipe? *looks up at rest of post* Not a whole lot?

I still expect a wipe may be imminent once the game is officially off beta, or anywhere in between, but almost all the reasons given in this thread for doing a wipe just seem pointless and inane (and I've listed the two reasons I think a wipe is important for). Whereas the "I don't want to lose my progress" is still a very valid reason for not wiping. It's just a matter of the developer deciding whether it's worth losing those few players or not.

I don't think there's a single person playing this game who, after a wipe, wouldn't think well hey, I know how to play this better now, and can do so from the start. I like my nation, with its faults and all, and if there's no wipe I'm totally ok with that as well, but I still believe that everyone starting out on an even playing field is still the best way to go. It would certainly help newer people not feel so out of place, and those who played through much of closed beta would have enough of a leg up having learned how to play already that it's not like their beta time was wasted.

And, as you've pointed out, wipes are common after betas, something that most people accept. Yes, we'll probably have a few people grumble about it here and there, maybe even have a couple of people not come back, but I don't think it's the same doomsday scenario you seem to make it out to be.

[kayeich]

Thanks, kayeich, great to see someone coming up with valid points. I hope you don't mind if I refute some.

Well, given I was trying to refute yours earlier, how can I say no?

Yes, the game slows down like mad after the how to build section of the tutorial is done with, but you have to realize that much of this game is spent waiting around for resources to gather. It's not meant to be played by sitting and managing every second of the day, it's really more of the "Set it and forget it!" type. It's a lot slower paced than people are used to, but it looks like that's how the game will progress.

Oh, I understand this. I prefer Anno 1404 for a faster paced city-building, though this has it's own charm in that type of game style. Just not necessarily something I want to go through repeatedly due to wipes either.

There's some problems with this. Yes, you can delete your buildings and re-make them, but the amount of resources you get back when blowing up a building is so miniscule that blowing up buildings to re-make them isn't really a viable solution, especially when we start to consider advanced buildings which have a huge cost.

Again I'll disagree here. I wasn't even thinking about the return value of resources with my original post. Keep in mind that when you start, you start off with (I think, based on the base storage capacity) 500 wood/500 stone/500 tools. If you run your resource gathering nodes a while after leveling up and have upgraded your mayor hall even once, you could probably instead start off with 2k+ of resources, and not just those three resources, but also hardwood/weapons/etc. Also, instead of laying residences and having to upgrade them for settlers, you could from the start put more of the advanced noble buildings which can house 30 settlers before upgrades. You can also set things and upgrade them immediately, thus saving on space for other resources. Etc, etc, etc..

So rebuilding actually -is- easier with a higher level account, and my point that saying one should wipe because of an inefficient layout is a little foolish. If you want to restart to have better efficiency, it's more efficient in the first place to start off with more resources.

As for making a new account, yes, I suppose that's possible to do, but having 2 account seems a little... exploitative to me.

I agree somewhat with you, as going through the tutorial does net someone 125 gems and they could use those gems to send some basic gifts to the next account...but again, it depends on how you use the account. If you're abandoning the first account, essentially treating as a wipe, well, what's the problem then? You've effectively created your own wipe, and haven't caused problems for the people against wipes.

Lower levels are unlikely to change, actually. It's once you're past 16 or so, and into advanced buildings that may (and should) change. This, however, may affect how you need to do things at lower levels. And, sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what your secondary point is there.

I actually don't expect the game to change much at all. My point is that the game is primarily a port of the european "Settlers Online", and that things -won't- change significantly. BUT, generally when a wipe does occur throughout a beta, it's due to bugs, but translation bugs wouldn't significantly effect the coding of the game and require hard wipes. It's one of the reasons that I think the question of wether to wipe or not is actually possible to even ask. In a game starting from the ground up, you just can't -not- wipe throughout a beta. Here it's actually an option.

Once again, the returns of tearing down is virtually nilch.

And again, you can still store more resources and have quicker access to them and not even care about return on torn down investments if you want to rennovate a layout.

There's a difference between jumping into an MMO like WoW or Rift and catching up to those at cap, and RTS's like this. The more apt comparison would be to that of Travian, or even something like Star Kingdoms both of which do a full wipe every x months to level the playing field again. Here, new folks that would join as open beta/live starts would not only be at a disadvantage of what to do, but at a disadvantage of being way behind in resources and such.

I'm not really familiar with either of the two games you mentioned, I'm afraid, though a wipe every X months could be an interesting model. Not necessarily one I'd like, but if I knew it was scheduled and coming when going into the game, it'd sting a lot less, certainly.

And yes, there's a community of people who are willing to give pointers and guilds to join (though with 15 people only per guild that seems unlikely right now), but really, if you come in at what you think is the start and there's people miles ahead of you already, would you really be willing to run the race? Sure, down the line people joining would have the same issue, the difference is that those folks would KNOW that the game has been out for x amount of time. Those that would start in open beta/live would expect to start on a level playing field.

With the guild thing, assuming this follows similar coding to Settlers Online (which it should for the most part), you actually -can- have more than 15 people, but people past 15 require a fee for 'illegal papers' that let you add an extra person. The actual guild limit is 100 members.

As for the other point, that's part of the difference, I suppose. I don't see it as a race. I'd be bothered a little if I paid for the game and people had resources they got while playing for free...but with a free game? I don't really see what there is to be bothered about. So I guess this is just a point where we'll disagree.

You can disagree with my points, no reason to belittle them though.

Heh, I suppose I did post my initial counterpoints a little too snarky. My apologies.

There's no reason why the community you speak of would just completely dissolve if there was a wipe, and finding bugs is what CB is for. I think the exodus from the game that you're imagining if there's a wipe is significantly smaller in reality; those that would leave because of a wipe probably wouldn't stick around for long anyways.

Well, I don't think there'd be a mass exodus either...but you'd be surprised at how many people do leave from a wipe that would have stuck around otherwise. I'm certainly the type to feel a sense of loss when weeks of progress is wiped, it's one reason I usually -don't- play betas where you can't play different classes or go through different starting zones. I like to experience things new, going through them a second time is just a grind/chore and no longer has that sense of fun.

Admittedly, I dunno how crushed I'd feel if I had to restart with CEO. Since it's something I'd only log onto once or twice a day, and I also play Anno 1404 a lot more for my city-building experience, I'm not quite as attached.

Currently, we do not know what the level cap is, nor do we know what we'll be able to do specifically when we get there. We don't know how pvp will function, what other worlds we'll be able to explore, just what functions guilds will have. It's not very useful to speculate what people will in the future when we don't know what activities will be available.

We actually can speculate a whole bunch just by checking out Settlers Online, really. Just because we haven't seen it yet, doesn't mean it hasn't been done. I do expect a few tweaks here and there to adjust for an american vs european audience, but for the most part, it's the same base structure.

I don't think there's a single person playing this game who, after a wipe, wouldn't think well hey, I know how to play this better now, and can do so from the start.

Oh, definitely. Like I mentioned before, I have residences next to my mayor's hall. I totally know not to do that now. =)

Again though, there's quite a few people so far that don't want a wipe seeing as the poll (at this time anyhow) seems fairly even split.

I like my nation, with its faults and all, and if there's no wipe I'm totally ok with that as well, but I still believe that everyone starting out on an even playing field is still the best way to go. It would certainly help newer people not feel so out of place, and those who played through much of closed beta would have enough of a leg up having learned how to play already that it's not like their beta time was wasted.

I generally don't disagree with this statement, though I still think an 'even playing field' isn't particularly of importance for a free game either.

And, as you've pointed out, wipes are common after betas, something that most people accept. Yes, we'll probably have a few people grumble about it here and there, maybe even have a couple of people not come back, but I don't think it's the same doomsday scenario you seem to make it out to be.

Well, I don't think it's a doomsday scenario either, but I am prone to overdramatize things!

I will stand very firmly by the statement that wiping due to people's yucky layouts is silly, though. If you want to wipe so you can be more efficient, you're not being very efficient in the first place!

[Cenzton]

Well folks, there you have it. When voting yes or no, that's essentially the two sides of the argument.

And thanks, kayeich, for being civil. Others have been... less stellar about that

[ctarco]

I would like to see an optional wipe where the player has a one-time opportunity to wipe when open-beta starts. They would not got a second opportunity.

[Fkyx]

Yes.

[Sigmar]

a CB wipe would be benificial to the gamers. as it puts everyone on equal footing. starting everyone off at the same level and speed unlike currently where people join who have 00:00:10 game time and some have 1 week 4days game time.

while the wipe is a pain in the backside for those who are high levels. it will also give everyone a chance to try out new ideas and planning for their starting towns, with the knowledge they have gained from the CB.. giving them a head start planning wise to recover the lost ground from the wipe.

it would also give people a change to fix any game bug issues they had during CB. that may not have been corrected without a data wipe.

[Wallstreet]

I'm right on the fence as its no big deal either way, but my settlement is coming along nicely and I'm happy with my progress so I am voting no to the wipe.

[Bloodmoon]

If we do wipe the games will we get a chance to choose a new main avatar?

[wimike]

I would say YES to a wipe. I agree that those that test Beta should not have a technological or trade advantage once the game is live. The fact is I hold out hope that maps will be randomized anyway and necessitate a wipe. Beta testers will have a distinct advantage anyway in their knowledge of the game. If anything else let that those were Beta testers get a bonus of starting materials and recruits when going live to get a head start maybe.

[Lora]

I have read all the pages of pros and cons on wiping, I think wiping is only fair when it goes open,I have played on others where new people join an older game and they are totally lost, attacked and end up leaving the game. I joined knowing this was a beta test, and that they get wiped before going open with the game, if others joined not knowing this then it wasn't made plain enough, that this is a BETA TEST ONLY.