Why the 11/25 update is good, and why weapons should not be in loot

[Kryptos901]

This is why I, personally, fully support Ubi and BB in the new 11/25 patch, and why I believe it is a good thing.

Settlers is, as it's core, a game of balancing production. Having played settlers online for over a year now, and having played several other settlers titles, I can honestly say that the most important part of this game is balancing your production, and prioritizing the more important chains. Prioritization falls by the wayside in settlers online, as there is no race against a specific opponent as there is in the single player titles. However, it is still there. Do you spend your hard earned granite on a damascene weaponsmith, or do you upgrade one of your bakeries, and the chains that feed it to level 5? Which is more important? Which should be more important?

I am currently level 48 in settlers online. I have produced and lost more than a thousand elite soldiers. I do not have a titanium smelter, or a damascene weaponsmith on my island. How can this be, you ask? Simple. I, like many other players, have relied on adventure loot to supply me with weapons. As a matter of fact, I have written several extensive production guides for one of the many wikis, in which I actively advised people to not build damascene weaponsmiths, and to not upgrade steel weaponsmiths just because of the sheer volume of weapons loot that falls in your lap late game. Effectively, the last meaningful production chain in the game was the gold or science production chain, fully unlocked at levels 26 and 40, respectively. This was broken. As nearly any historian will tell you, one of the most effective ways to slow a hostile advance into your territory is the "scorched earth" policy. Most effectively used by the Soviet Union during World War II, this involves destroying *ALL* infrastructure and supplies to make it harder for an advancing enemy to resupply themselves. Apparently, adventure islands didn't get that memo.

Where is this going, you ask? Simple. Settlers is a game of production and balance. This means that having advanced weapons, such as cannons and damascene swords drop as loot, was by definition, a broken mechanic. It invalidated the associated production chains. There was simply no point in building the buildings which created those weapons, as each damascene sword cost 172 coal, and it was far easier to run a VtV or a BK and grab 300 from loot. Same with cannons, crossbows, steel swords, and to an extent, iron swords. Those chains didn't need to exist, and in most cases only existed because of the associated quests. The PvP update changed that. Finally, there is a purpose to having high end production chains, as they are necessary to have high end weapons.

I believe that this update was a very valuable one, as it simultaneously created a new "production chain" (attack weapons), as well as reviving several previously useless production chains. Yes, this means more work for you, the player. But, if you didn't want to spend time and energy on this game, creating the perfect island, then why are you playing?



TL;DR: Start the flame war.

[Stranger013]

Here's my loot from my latest Black Knights adventure....

900 granite
750 copper ore
600 iron ore
750 coal
600 hardwood logs
600 horses
150 settlers
600 brew
165 bread
1x 600 meat refill
1x 600 iron refill

Yes, Black Knights is pretty easy once you have cannons but this isn't exactly "epic" loot. I think they need to adjust the numbers up for players to bother running the adventures.

I really don't mind making my own weapons but it still takes resources to produce them.

[Bushybraw]

There are a few key things you are missing here I think.
1. How does this change effect the lower lvl player that is just starting to do adventures?
How many of them are willing to grind it out do you think when losing 200 soldiers for whatever reason now means no more adventuring for a week.
2. How many lvl 48-50's who have spent god knows how many hours days years getting their islands setup perfectly for whatever their needs/goals are willing to demolish and rebuild? You say "if you don't want to spend the time and energy on this game to create the PERFECT island..." What about the perfect island i have now? I paid my dews i did what it took, i put in the time the energy the sleepless nights to setup my island to be able to run 10 back to back adventures if i chose to do so and now i have to make weapons for a week because i ran an FT?

Dont get me wrong. I know it doesn't sound like it but i do support the change. it's a game and things should change. People that want to adjust and keep going will and those that dont will quit. No big deal either way but when talking about a change people should consider how it effects the next person in the game as well because without a playerbace playing a game by yourself is no fun.

On a last note.everything on my island is lvl 5-6. my chains are setup to best fit me and I rather lose 5k more recruits than switch over to losing m/s/e and so on. Reason 1. I dont have any space to add new chains.
Reason 2. Time is a resource to me and BS from mining stage to putting the weapon in a Recruits hand is much faster still than replacing 500 elits.
Reason 3. I'm not about to take down buildings to adjust to a different chain that i spent so much time, energy and resources getting to lvl 5/6.
I'm a rebel, I'm dumb, I refuse to change, etc etc etc...I am me

Before anyone jumps on my numbers, yes some are exaggerations, i do not claim that any of the numbers/time provided in my reply is accurate or calculated.

[Kryptos901]

Bushybraw-I think you make a good point about the player base. And here is where I would like to chime in about the settlers economy. I remember watermills costing 1200c. Now, I see them going for nearly 10k. This inflation is caused by the lack of gold sinks, i.e. level 4 upgrades for many buildings. I.e. new players.

Using one of the most, if not the hands-down most successful free MMO games in existence, runescape, as an example, I believe this is caused by the relative ease of leveling up to max. I am slow. I've spoken to many people that have hit level 50, max level, in less than a year. This creates a very top-heavy economy, in which high(-er) end resources, like HWP, marble, and coins, which are the highest tier resources available without adventures, are effectively worthless. This is a problem. This is not an easy problem to fix, and the cooperative nature of the settlers community makes it even harder to address. Without changing the cooperative nature, and therefore alienating players like me, I think the next best choice for stabilization of the game is to make it much harder to hit max level. This means harder adventures, bigger losses, and overall more scarcity. Many people that are used to just getting swamped in freebies will complain. Many people will burn out and quit. many will just rage quit. Ultimately, this will extend the longevity of the game.

As to your other points, I fully agree. I would also rather lose 5k R on a single FT than lose, say, 700M and save 2k R. That is a personal decision, and based on your island, you should be able to choose which one you prefer. I simply don't see how this is affected by the update. If anything, your willingness to lose R should make you relatively immune to the loss in weapon loot.

[KingHomer]

I believe that this update was a very valuable one, as it simultaneously created a new "production chain" (attack weapons), as well as reviving several previously useless production chains. Yes, this means more work for you, the player. But, if you didn't want to spend time and energy on this game, creating the perfect island, then why are you playing?

TL;DR: Start the flame war.

First of all, I agree with most of what you say. My main issues:

1) The new armory is manually driven with caps of 25 weapons per batch. Some of the new units use 6 weapons, so to make 100 (max marshall unit capacity), I would need to make 600 weapons, manually clicking to make 25 weapons 24 times and then making 4 batches of 25 attack units. Note that your perfectly balanced production chains of the "old" weapons ran as long as you had resources to produce another weapon. This is not a balanced production chain - It's an ignore my island until I have enough iron bars, then painfully go into the armory and manually make weapons.
2) This has become an iron-based series. I understand driving us to higher metals than copper, but coupled with the lack of weapons drops it's a matter of time before iron bars are the most inflated item in the game. You need them to build iron swords, the new bows/crossbows and the new sabers/lances. You also need iron bars to make steel to build the steel swords and the new pikes/maces, that makes 8 weapons based on an iron chain, plus I don't even know the coal requirements.
3) The free movement is nice, but honestly is will be much more in need when they give us expansion islands (please now!) so we have the space to build up the extra iron/steel and supporting coal production.
4) Search and build times for iron/coal mines. I have logged in every day for about 2 1/2 years, but there are many days I only am on for a few minutes. I can send explorers out but even the upgraded jolly geo won't be back before I've moved on to something else, so a lot of iron and coal will sit idle until I can build up iron mines. I know others have remarked on this, but it's even more true now that I've seen the live version (I did not do much on test).
5) Buffs for the new armory don't increase yield from resources, they shorten the production time. All your normal smiths gain increased yield from buffing.

These are just a first impression, I made another post with the results of my first expedition. It will not be a profitable one, even though I was very lucky/efficient on unit losses. As much as I want the fresh content, I will probably become a weapon-seller and go try BK and Outlaws and other old advents that might now have favorable loot with only recruit (copper-based) losses.

EDIT: Also forgot iron bars are used to make wheels in the cannon chain...

[Kryptos901]

First, from what I've read on the forums, it seems they're raising the 25 cap to 5k. Which is *AWESOME*, BB, by the way, PLEASE DO THAT. I'm tired of getting carpal tunnel every time I run an epic adventure.

As for making it a much more iron based game, I agree. Iron will become more important. Considering the current iron mines and their production times, they are similar to copper mines-2.4 days for a level one mine to run out, a day and change for a level two, etc. However, there are 16 such deposits. Based on the huge amount of deposits, it seems BB has always wanted us to switch to iron and steel losses as soon as we were able, we simply didn't see the point due to the numbers. The increased search time and building time simply means we spend more time logged in to settlers versus whatever other games we happen to be playing, which from a marketing standpoint is ideal. You will see similar mechanics in most time-based online games. As a matter of fact, this is taken to its illogical extreme in games like farmville where you are punished for *NOT* being constantly vigilant with your crops rotting and stuff. That is basic Pavlovian conditioning, and will exist as long as we are human. Your point 3 will be fixed after the 2 weeks of free movement. As for expansion islands, I have no fully formed opinion. Points 4 and 5 can be explained with the obvious game preference for iron, as well as to keep you playing more than a few minutes per day, as described above.

[Forrell]

If I were to produce everything that I need, what would be the point of having trade?

What would be the point of having a friends list?

For what reason would I communicate with other players?

At what point would players just be playing with themselves?

[Moonlime]

I produce everything I need and I play with others and even trade.
Let's play the game, folks :-)

[Plumz]

Krypto your "16 iron deposit on your island" argument just doesn't make any sense. Just to find those deposits (1hr each for regular geo) will take about 4hrs (most of my freebie guildies have 3-4 geos). Than you have to build the mines and upgrade them and buff them. That;s 8 hrs of work for you a day. And if you have 4 iron smelts lev 5 you are going to need ALL those iron depos up and running to feed it. Not to mention those depos hold 500 ore and will be dry in a matter of less than a day when upgraded.

The devs push of the game into iron was well criticized on test with solid data that can't be just ignored. The game design DOESN'T SUPPORT the current push into iron production. This was one of the major reason why "new combat balance" was let go. And now we have pvp which requires tons of iron, new army and new generals and gives... basically crap as a reward.

I agree with you all online games have their own mechanics to keep people online playing them. But you can't just push people into doing so many things in game and reward them with ... well lets call it as it is.. crap. Did you read how many people already asked BB for refund on the marshals? Find me ONE person who agrees that the pvp rewards are fine and is happy about it. Most of the opinions about pvp hoovers between "way to expensive" and "pure scam to get more gems".

[Plumz]

The game is in deep trouble, the sentiment about it is dropping like an anchor into the bottom of an ocean. The current pvp mechanics created a huge demand for iron that will not be ever filled up because there is simply NOT ENOUGH iron to fuel the demand. Even if people stop doing pvp (which I believe is inevitable if the laughable rewards don't improve), there still will be shortage of iron simply because now everyone is forced to make iron/steel weapons for iether regular or pvp adventures.

The game design doesn't support such huge push into iron. Period. How to fix it? Read the test forums about new balance posts. Plenty of choices were given there.